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welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics I'm your host Alex seekers

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and I'm really excited about today's

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show because I'm not just a podcaster

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and I'm a podcaster for a long time but

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I got into podcasting because I was a

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listener and I still AM a podcast

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listener today and I love to share the

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work of people who really inspire me and

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there's a guy who has really been

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knocking it out of the park lately you

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might have seen him on the show before

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his name is Richard Cox but he has a

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show the deep state consciousness

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podcast so Richard thanks so much for

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joining me and welcome to skeptic OH

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welcome back guys thank you nice to

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feedback so let's see of course you are

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being roped into playing sceptical

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jeopardy

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you've knew that coming in so there's

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kind of no no secrets in any of that I

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am more high tech than last time I was

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on this is really cuz I listened to the

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show I hadn't seen this this is like

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really like when the game show now yeah

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yeah you're right

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we're taking it to the next level sure

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sure okay I'm gonna read The Skeptical

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jeopardy board for those who are just

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listening along it starts out with deep

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States 911 podcasting cult ish trauma

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medium non-duality suicide and et now

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you have not been given a heads up in

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any of these topics so we're gonna get

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the raw unedited version of Richard Cox

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I'm gonna pick the first one because I

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think it's only appropriate since I did

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just a little bit of an introduction you

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tell us more about the podcast okay well

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I never intended to do a podcast I fell

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into it because I was doing some work

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with Tim freak philosopher and previous

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guest on the show we

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some of his books and I felt like Tim

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goes through so many different things

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there's a lot of subjects he called in

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the past exam and gurus that written

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books on perhaps but there was nothing

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on YouTube and I thought hey someone

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should interview about this and no one

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was so I fall right I throw my hat in

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the ring and see if I could pull off an

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interview and it wasn't too awful people

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told me so I sort of liked it and then I

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realized that I knew all these

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interesting people who were just quietly

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living their lives and I felt the world

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deserved to hear a bit more from them so

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initially if I'll just do one or two and

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then I kept finding that I knew more and

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more interesting people so that's how I

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I kind of slipped into the whole podcast

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thing maybe we'll just leave it at that

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because I think we'll get into that as I

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let you pick the next topic that we

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might go to

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I'm gonna run roughshod over all these

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boundary start to watch me there Alex I

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mean just I could I could follow up on

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why you're saying there was the the 9/11

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and spirituality thing all the

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conspiracy and spirituality if if that's

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please do well yeah I think that's them

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impart a product of my age that I'm 36

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now which means I was 18 when 9/11

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happened and that coincided with me

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leaving school and it was also a time in

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my life where I suppose yes to pick a

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tarot card the tower tarot card would be

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the appropriate world where my belief in

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the society as it is structures as they

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are the system the establishment that

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was all coming tumbling down and I

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didn't really have anything to replace

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it with and it was leading to a rather

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despair for place of does anyone have a

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clue what's what's going on here and

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things like your president george w bush

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being elected that shot pieces my faith

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in the the concept of a leader of the

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free will for reasons I don't think I

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need to explain and and then in well I

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think let me take that back I think you

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do need to explain for a couple reasons

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one my audience is largely American

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you're British you're in particularly

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around the Isle of Man which is even

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more

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kind of interested and kind of isolated

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in a way but you know what was your what

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why do you say that because I go I go a

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million different directions with that I

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go skullenbones CIA literally nothing

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that deep initially for me so here see

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have to understand that open till about

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the age of sixteen seventeen I believed

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in the system right as as everyone doors

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really and say I remember being a little

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kid and we had to make a model house and

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I made the White House because I heard

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like George Bush Senior being the

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president and he done something to

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protect Golden Eagles and I thought that

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sounded great and presidents protect

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Golden Eagles and they're the leaders of

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the free world and I felt everything was

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figured out and we have the scientific

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theories we have and for very well

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thought-out reasons okay and even if

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random mutations in evolutionary biology

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might not make sense to me it certainly

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makes sense the boffins at Oxford

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University okay and that they've might

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if I could get like talk to people like

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that my questions will be answered and

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even if economic systems maybe don't

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appear quite right sometimes of course

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that we all have the the economic

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policies we have because they are the

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best ones and it couldn't be any other

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way and so what one of many things have

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grown another thing be my just direct

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experience of going to the educational

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system but with the with the bush thing

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and initially I was cooked by just the

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what seemed to me like the most

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incredible coincidence off in a country

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300 million people the sense the idea

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the job one before getting it in it's

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like gosh is there some is there some

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fundamental reversion to monarchy that

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human societies just go through are we

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sort of that primitive that we just

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revert back to what seems like a less

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evolved form of government and then I

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thought well maybe it's you know maybe

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sometimes like the the children of great

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athletes or themselves great athletes

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for genetic reasons so maybe the Bush

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family are just the best of the bunch

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and George junior you know he really is

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the brightest America has to offer

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literally I thought this prior to seeing

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him on TV and that I did and it became

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apparent to me that the United States

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did have better to offer

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you know in terms of intellectual

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capacity and it's just something very

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wrong with this picture this the picture

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no longer makes sense you know so that

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was one of many cracks that were

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appearing at that time so roll that then

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I kind of sidetracked the story a little

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bit we have to roll that into 911 and I

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guess in particular if I was going to

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hone in because you've done so much work

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on it that we could spend an hour just

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talking about that what interested me

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from a skeptical perspective and this is

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jumping right into the middle of this

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story folks because again Richard has

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done so much work on this is a point

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where it was almost an aside almost a

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throwaway point Richard but you go you

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know hey look I can look at the building

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7 collapse and understand why people see

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that as a smoking gun you don't cover

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building seven you did this deep dive

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into the CIA into all these shenanigans

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that are going back and forth between

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the CIA and the FBI following all these

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guys and then you get and you start

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unraveling the the craziness of the

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intelligence agencies covering their ass

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when clearly they were following these

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guys knew about this thing and then were

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maneuvered by whatever force is out

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there to do that to kind of look the

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other way and bypass this yeah well just

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to give some backstory of this at 9/11

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is always kind of interesting me because

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I as I say it happened at this time of

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like where was just getting into

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spiritual awakening and these two things

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seemed awfully joined to me like the

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inner world in the outer right that

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there are deep mysteries in our own

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consciousness and also there are deep

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mysteries in the world the surface

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appearance that we are presented with in

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the nightly news is is not true and I

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think it back then there was also some

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way to recognition me that I didn't have

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enough world in

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in context to take on those questions

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and things like the internet just won't

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in the state they're in now obviously so

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I kind of I left it for a few years and

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came back to it and left it again and

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most recently I kind of stumbled into

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meeting this chap Adam Fitzgerald and

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he's the real hardcore 9/11 researcher

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so I've been working as him on the

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series and looking at the geopolitical

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history okay because building seven and

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the collapse of the towers has become

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9/11 for the conspiracy angle it's it's

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gonna consume this immense amount of

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attention perhaps for good reason but we

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certainly feel that there are ways you

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can prove government complicity in the

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attacks without mentioning the

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demolition of buildings at all and it's

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not the way we will never touch the

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buildings we actually just recorded with

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David Chandler last night the physicists

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who who did a lot of work on the

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collapse off the buildings and and he's

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the guy that forced NIST the National

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Institute of Standards and Technology to

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admit a period of freefall in there so

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we've had to step into that because it's

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too big to ignore but my feeling about

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it is people do not necessarily accept

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things for EM physics or statistical

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reasons alone okay so klasky example

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ever notices dr. Semmelweis the fellow

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who discovered that surgeons who work

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with corpses and then go straight into

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the maternity ward vastly increase the

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death rate of newborn babies and mothers

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and even though we could demonstrate

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this beyond all doubt statistically

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people wouldn't have it because there

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was no plausible mechanism for how a

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little bit of skin under the fingernails

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from a court could cause these kind of

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them these kind of effects prior to germ

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theory and you will of course see this

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with them psychical research and things

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so physics aside I think if you're gonna

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make those kind of claims you need to

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demonstrate what kind of geopolitical

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context what kind of structures in the

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deep state the CIA whoever else could

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give rise to ringing a building with

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explosive charges and so that's why

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we've we've laid towards the

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geopolitical in a strongly yeah I I hear

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that and I guess how

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we can turn this into something other

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than just kind of rambling discussion

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but it might just be a rambling

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discussion between two podcasters to me

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you're doing a lot more and you're doing

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a lot of deeper work in the kind of deep

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spiritual kind of thing that you said

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because I would maybe challenge you a

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00:11:17,050 --> 00:11:15,140
little bit on that idea that oh you know

273
00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:17,060
the reason that people didn't accept

274
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:21,710
that there's these unseen forces being

275
00:11:27,460 --> 00:11:25,130
germs and bacteria that caused women to

276
00:11:29,890 --> 00:11:27,470
get died when they're infected by the

277
00:11:31,900 --> 00:11:29,900
surgeon no people just did it because

278
00:11:33,790 --> 00:11:31,910
they just followed Authority I mean they

279
00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:33,800
were just told this is the truth and

280
00:11:36,970 --> 00:11:34,880
they just accepted it

281
00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:36,980
then it read the current science and

282
00:11:43,210 --> 00:11:40,310
then were you know converted by the data

283
00:11:46,180 --> 00:11:43,220
and in the same way 9/11 I mean people

284
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:46,190
no one's gonna change their mind on this

285
00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:49,010
people not not no one I shouldn't say no

286
00:11:55,090 --> 00:11:52,880
a vast majority of people are not going

287
00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:55,100
to change their mind and the government

288
00:11:59,200 --> 00:11:57,530
agencies on the world basis you know we

289
00:12:01,060 --> 00:11:59,210
have ours here you have yours there and

290
00:12:03,130 --> 00:12:01,070
then there's something above that that

291
00:12:06,340 --> 00:12:03,140
we don't totally understand they rely on

292
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:06,350
the fact that most people just do what

293
00:12:10,660 --> 00:12:08,330
they're told and most people are so

294
00:12:11,890 --> 00:12:10,670
involved in the day-to-day struggles of

295
00:12:13,810 --> 00:12:11,900
their life that they really don't have

296
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:13,820
any time to look at any of this stuff in

297
00:12:17,710 --> 00:12:15,770
that so that's kind of one point that

298
00:12:19,330 --> 00:12:17,720
I'd make but the other point is we

299
00:12:21,370 --> 00:12:19,340
should never rely on intelligence

300
00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:21,380
organizations to do anything other than

301
00:12:25,270 --> 00:12:23,360
exactly what they did own absolutely

302
00:12:29,010 --> 00:12:25,280
absolutely just to address your first

303
00:12:31,570 --> 00:12:29,020
point briefly and I'm I appreciate the

304
00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:31,580
pessimism is true strong strong word but

305
00:12:35,290 --> 00:12:33,770
the pragmatism may be that you bring

306
00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:35,300
these kind of conversations in a world

307
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:36,800
of spirituality where everyone thinks

308
00:12:41,020 --> 00:12:39,200
that the Age of Aquarius is dawning or

309
00:12:43,150 --> 00:12:41,030
something or we're going to have a

310
00:12:45,310 --> 00:12:43,160
revolution and overthrow the deep state

311
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:45,320
and live in peace and happiness forever

312
00:12:49,090 --> 00:12:47,120
you've always been a bit more pragmatic

313
00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:49,100
on that and said no this is always going

314
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:51,710
to be an issue the population and I

315
00:12:56,980 --> 00:12:55,610
appreciate that so when I say trying to

316
00:12:59,380 --> 00:12:56,990
demonstrate a plausibility to such a

317
00:13:01,180 --> 00:12:59,390
thing as bombs and buildings and I don't

318
00:13:02,350 --> 00:13:01,190
mean so that we can finally stick it in

319
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:02,360
the face of the populace and they will

320
00:13:05,620 --> 00:13:03,650
have to come round and millions of

321
00:13:08,740 --> 00:13:05,630
people will take to the streets I mean

322
00:13:09,790 --> 00:13:08,750
to allow for an understanding of that

323
00:13:12,670 --> 00:13:09,800
firstly for myself

324
00:13:13,780 --> 00:13:12,680
and because I have gaps there - I don't

325
00:13:15,610 --> 00:13:13,790
know who could have given the order for

326
00:13:18,009 --> 00:13:15,620
such a thing and within the deep state

327
00:13:20,199 --> 00:13:18,019
and and then to allow for people who

328
00:13:22,449 --> 00:13:20,209
want to know - to come to know that but

329
00:13:24,910 --> 00:13:22,459
you dead and the second point yeah I

330
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:24,920
think it's M it's beyond doubt comes in

331
00:13:29,650 --> 00:13:27,440
in September 11 itself that the CIA were

332
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:29,660
protecting at least two of the hijackers

333
00:13:34,420 --> 00:13:32,570
and that can be demonstrated beyond all

334
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:34,430
doubt and additionally going back to the

335
00:13:40,180 --> 00:13:37,730
1993 bombing it's clear that they were

336
00:13:41,769 --> 00:13:40,190
protecting the brooklyn cell and the

337
00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:41,779
nearly brought down the trade center

338
00:13:48,819 --> 00:13:45,110
then as part of an historic relationship

339
00:13:50,740 --> 00:13:48,829
with Islamist militant types which

340
00:13:52,420 --> 00:13:50,750
ratcheted up seriously in the nineteen

341
00:13:54,970 --> 00:13:52,430
eighties the you can go way back with it

342
00:13:58,030 --> 00:13:54,980
because there there are convenient proxy

343
00:14:00,460 --> 00:13:58,040
army to carry out geo strategic games

344
00:14:01,750 --> 00:14:00,470
and that's that's what the CIA and

345
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:01,760
assorted intelligence agencies do

346
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:03,170
they're not there to protect Americans

347
00:14:10,540 --> 00:14:08,000
from terror threats yeah there's just so

348
00:14:13,660 --> 00:14:10,550
many threads to pull on I might even if

349
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:13,670
I have the time dig up a clip that you

350
00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:15,170
have from one of the things where you

351
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:18,020
play in an interview from Richard Clarke

352
00:14:23,019 --> 00:14:21,110
who was in the White House what was his

353
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:23,029
official position the White House he was

354
00:14:27,639 --> 00:14:25,130
national security coordinator in the

355
00:14:30,750 --> 00:14:27,649
White House so he oversaw different

356
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:30,760
agencies in their relationship to the

357
00:14:35,199 --> 00:14:33,410
executive branch then the the the

358
00:14:36,699 --> 00:14:35,209
stunning thing about about that for me

359
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:36,709
that kind of encapsulates this whole

360
00:14:42,190 --> 00:14:39,770
thing is Richard Clarke was just really

361
00:14:44,260 --> 00:14:42,200
hung out to dry on nests you know like

362
00:14:45,940 --> 00:14:44,270
gosh how did you blow this you know cuz

363
00:14:48,010 --> 00:14:45,950
we have to find somebody to blame and he

364
00:14:50,410 --> 00:14:48,020
fought back a little bit by kind of

365
00:14:54,370 --> 00:14:50,420
outing some people and in this interview

366
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,380
he kind of outs the CIA and the FBI in

367
00:14:58,420 --> 00:14:56,000
terms of information he's getting back

368
00:15:02,410 --> 00:14:58,430
and he goes right up to the verge of

369
00:15:05,439 --> 00:15:02,420
saying clearly you know these guys lied

370
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:05,449
you know including Mueller and from the

371
00:15:10,180 --> 00:15:07,490
FBI including all these other guys but

372
00:15:13,449 --> 00:15:10,190
then he backs off in typical you know

373
00:15:16,449 --> 00:15:13,459
intelligence fashion which is all we'll

374
00:15:18,850 --> 00:15:16,459
ever get and that's my bottom line and

375
00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:18,860
this is all we'll ever get is Richard

376
00:15:23,620 --> 00:15:21,529
Clarke saying well it could be this

377
00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:23,630
which is totally ridiculous

378
00:15:31,329 --> 00:15:28,310
don't know what it is yep

379
00:15:34,629 --> 00:15:31,339
so Richard call cloths clip is both

380
00:15:36,759 --> 00:15:34,639
deeply revealing and probably not

381
00:15:38,499 --> 00:15:36,769
entirely true okay oh we could certainly

382
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:38,509
question the narrative ease each Pony

383
00:15:43,180 --> 00:15:40,610
across because and just to give the

384
00:15:46,269 --> 00:15:43,190
listener the narrative and to off the

385
00:15:48,129 --> 00:15:46,279
hijackers who Alderley boarded flight 77

386
00:15:51,189 --> 00:15:48,139
which went into the Pentagon the CIA

387
00:15:53,620 --> 00:15:51,199
knew they came into the country and not

388
00:15:54,819 --> 00:15:53,630
only failed to inform the FBI who should

389
00:15:57,129 --> 00:15:54,829
have taken over the case then but

390
00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:57,139
deliberately absolutely blocked the FBI

391
00:16:00,999 --> 00:15:58,730
from ever finding out they were there

392
00:16:03,069 --> 00:16:01,009
and whilst these guys were ferried

393
00:16:05,499 --> 00:16:03,079
around by Saudi intelligence with links

394
00:16:08,350 --> 00:16:05,509
to the royal family open to the point

395
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:08,360
that they board the planes and so this

396
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:11,690
is like a total crime right and Richard

397
00:16:16,749 --> 00:16:15,170
Clarke's and hypothesizes that the CIA

398
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:16,759
were trying to flip these guys because

399
00:16:22,269 --> 00:16:18,170
they didn't have agents inside al-qaeda

400
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:22,279
right and that's the bit though and it

401
00:16:25,509 --> 00:16:24,050
doesn't really make sense on in a lot of

402
00:16:27,610 --> 00:16:25,519
ways okay when you when you're going and

403
00:16:30,009 --> 00:16:27,620
we've just interviewed a an FBI agent

404
00:16:32,309 --> 00:16:30,019
who was involved in Alex ation at the

405
00:16:34,629 --> 00:16:32,319
time that's the CIA's bin Laden unit and

406
00:16:36,639 --> 00:16:34,639
who is also of that opinion who is also

407
00:16:38,499 --> 00:16:36,649
used and is very angry about it about

408
00:16:39,759 --> 00:16:38,509
how the CIA would not let him pass this

409
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:39,769
information on to his colleagues at the

410
00:16:43,449 --> 00:16:42,170
FBI and and you know when you talk

411
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:43,459
someone who's on the inside and they can

412
00:16:48,129 --> 00:16:44,810
resolve your question sometimes in the

413
00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:48,139
girl okay now I see and thus far that's

414
00:16:52,540 --> 00:16:50,000
not the sense we've come away with we've

415
00:16:54,910 --> 00:16:52,550
still come away feeling like yeah he

416
00:16:56,530 --> 00:16:54,920
actually makes far more sense if you

417
00:16:59,620 --> 00:16:56,540
look at it but certain people in the CIA

418
00:17:01,870 --> 00:16:59,630
wanted these attacks to to go ahead to

419
00:17:05,439 --> 00:17:01,880
me that looks like a more sensible

420
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:05,449
picture yeah or the way I would phrase

421
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:10,730
it is they had a ire instruction or

422
00:17:16,779 --> 00:17:14,720
mission to not intervene at some point

423
00:17:20,649 --> 00:17:16,789
not that they even knew what that was

424
00:17:24,669 --> 00:17:20,659
about and then after the attacks they

425
00:17:29,860 --> 00:17:24,679
had another you know mission and that

426
00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:29,870
was to not get killed suicided or you

427
00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:32,720
know completely sent to prison for not

428
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:36,830
disclosing this so to me it just kind of

429
00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:40,880
is it's very instructive the series of

430
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:43,520
interviews you did into exactly the

431
00:17:47,290 --> 00:17:45,650
psychology that must be going on in

432
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:47,300
these people's minds you know I mean

433
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:49,130
they're given a job to do they're doing

434
00:17:53,020 --> 00:17:50,930
the job the best they can and at some

435
00:17:56,110 --> 00:17:53,030
point they go WOW but shouldn't we be

436
00:17:57,940 --> 00:17:56,120
you know telling somebody then you put

437
00:17:59,530 --> 00:17:57,950
that aside and then 9/11 happens you

438
00:18:00,970 --> 00:17:59,540
what can you do I mean you there's

439
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:00,980
nothing you can do you got to go along

440
00:18:06,340 --> 00:18:03,250
with the program now

441
00:18:08,110 --> 00:18:06,350
yeah and it's it's not speculative to

442
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:08,120
say about getting in trouble all people

443
00:18:11,710 --> 00:18:10,160
that blew whistles on things after 9/11

444
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:11,720
did get in serious trouble did have FBI

445
00:18:15,610 --> 00:18:13,490
agents bursting into their houses and

446
00:18:17,170 --> 00:18:15,620
putting guns to their head and some of

447
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:17,180
them did do time in jail or lost their

448
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:18,770
jobs or ended up a court at the very

449
00:18:22,750 --> 00:18:20,930
least so whereas all the people who and

450
00:18:25,540 --> 00:18:22,760
participated in the pre 9/11 cover-up

451
00:18:28,060 --> 00:18:25,550
and continued that Corp afterwards they

452
00:18:32,020 --> 00:18:28,070
all got promoted so it's entirely

453
00:18:33,490 --> 00:18:32,030
accurate yeah you know the thing I tell

454
00:18:36,010 --> 00:18:33,500
you is there there's no such thing as

455
00:18:38,550 --> 00:18:36,020
whistleblowers anymore if you see a

456
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:38,560
whistleblower you should be immediately

457
00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:41,440
suspect and in a minute we'll talk about

458
00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:45,590
ET and the t TSA to the Stars Academy

459
00:18:50,740 --> 00:18:48,110
and the controlled disclosure on all

460
00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:50,750
that and to me one of the first telltale

461
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:53,960
signs of that whole thing is the guy

462
00:18:58,600 --> 00:18:55,970
claims to be a whistleblower and he's

463
00:19:01,180 --> 00:18:58,610
not a whistleblower so it's it's a

464
00:19:03,790 --> 00:19:01,190
controlled fake with whistleblowers wind

465
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:03,800
up in jail or dead that's the way it is

466
00:19:08,770 --> 00:19:06,890
now yeah absolutely yeah I'm not saying

467
00:19:11,140 --> 00:19:08,780
there's no time you know there are

468
00:19:12,910 --> 00:19:11,150
people who go through hardship and that

469
00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:12,920
that would indicate you know through

470
00:19:15,820 --> 00:19:13,910
whistleblowing and that would indicate

471
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:15,830
maybe there's something more serious

472
00:19:19,660 --> 00:19:18,290
about their story but and yes that's the

473
00:19:22,930 --> 00:19:19,670
general path we have to be very careful

474
00:19:24,460 --> 00:19:22,940
and discerning in to me what's really

475
00:19:26,830 --> 00:19:24,470
really significant about what you're

476
00:19:29,380 --> 00:19:26,840
doing is you are connecting it as we

477
00:19:32,620 --> 00:19:29,390
said from the very beginning to the deep

478
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:32,630
state contemplation that is the personal

479
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:37,130
spiritual journey kind of thing and I've

480
00:19:44,650 --> 00:19:41,210
always felt that the conspiracy stuff

481
00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:44,660
the conspiracy science if you will the

482
00:19:50,820 --> 00:19:47,529
conspiracy ethos

483
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:50,830
has a role to play in that because the

484
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:53,440
folks that I encountered in I encounter

485
00:19:58,379 --> 00:19:55,570
over and over again who are not willing

486
00:20:01,499 --> 00:19:58,389
to go there are not willing to look at

487
00:20:03,269 --> 00:20:01,509
that shadow because 9/11 is a shadow we

488
00:20:06,180 --> 00:20:03,279
don't know where the shadow goes and I

489
00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:06,190
don't particularly care to spend my

490
00:20:11,879 --> 00:20:08,799
whole life tracing down those shadows

491
00:20:14,399 --> 00:20:11,889
but I do think as part of my spiritual

492
00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:14,409
path it's important to understand that

493
00:20:18,899 --> 00:20:17,529
there is a shadow there we had an

494
00:20:21,379 --> 00:20:18,909
interesting conversation I don't know a

495
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:21,389
year or so ago with Tim Freak who I

496
00:20:26,940 --> 00:20:24,490
loved him and he's awesome but he's just

497
00:20:28,379 --> 00:20:26,950
not willing to go there on any of this

498
00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:28,389
stuff I have a similar kind of

499
00:20:34,549 --> 00:20:30,580
relationship with my buddy Rick Archer

500
00:20:39,060 --> 00:20:34,559
good at the gas pump just close to this

501
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:39,070
aspect which to me seems to close them

502
00:20:46,889 --> 00:20:43,710
off from a greater part of this

503
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:46,899
spiritual path that needs to be explored

504
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:51,850
where does 9/11 fit with you and your

505
00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:55,330
deeply spiritual show you know I'm not

506
00:21:00,749 --> 00:20:58,090
entirely sure it very much arises from

507
00:21:03,299 --> 00:21:00,759
the felt place in me that these things

508
00:21:04,919 --> 00:21:03,309
are connected and maybe one day I'll

509
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:04,929
conclude that they're not and there

510
00:21:10,169 --> 00:21:06,370
really is no link between spirituality

511
00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:10,179
and events like 9/11 for my felt senses

512
00:21:14,009 --> 00:21:12,700
and that there is I think you know if my

513
00:21:16,740 --> 00:21:14,019
podcast is about anything it's about

514
00:21:21,659 --> 00:21:16,750
being with what is and how we perceive

515
00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:21,669
the world and how things aren't what

516
00:21:25,289 --> 00:21:23,470
they appear to be and 9/11 is certainly

517
00:21:28,850 --> 00:21:25,299
something that isn't what it appears to

518
00:21:31,139 --> 00:21:28,860
be so it draws me in in that way and and

519
00:21:33,330 --> 00:21:31,149
then the question becomes well how deep

520
00:21:36,029 --> 00:21:33,340
does that rabbit hole go are we going

521
00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:36,039
all the way into you know Illuminati

522
00:21:40,590 --> 00:21:39,190
type groups and connections with all the

523
00:21:42,779 --> 00:21:40,600
worlds the entities they're all really

524
00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:42,789
behind I don't not how are we not

525
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:44,950
that's the inevitable thing I think

526
00:21:49,740 --> 00:21:47,200
arises when we acknowledge okay

527
00:21:53,820 --> 00:21:49,750
you know dr. Julie by Schiller's showing

528
00:21:56,129 --> 00:21:53,830
us that there's a validity to this or

529
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:56,139
the worldly contact in some way if we

530
00:21:59,639 --> 00:21:57,490
thought we needed that maybe our

531
00:22:00,539 --> 00:21:59,649
personal anecdotal experience as shown

532
00:22:03,299 --> 00:22:00,549
as that

533
00:22:05,009 --> 00:22:03,309
and then furthermore we see that that's

534
00:22:06,389 --> 00:22:05,019
not all sweetness and light there are a

535
00:22:08,129 --> 00:22:06,399
percentage of people who have very

536
00:22:10,199 --> 00:22:08,139
negative experiences which there seems

537
00:22:11,549 --> 00:22:10,209
to be whatever's going on over there it

538
00:22:14,959 --> 00:22:11,559
seems to be a spectrum of good and bad

539
00:22:17,399 --> 00:22:14,969
and so I've interviewed the

540
00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:17,409
psychotherapist Gerry Mezvinsky on my

541
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:20,950
show who who worked with people in both

542
00:22:25,349 --> 00:22:23,440
in the mental institution and in prisons

543
00:22:27,719 --> 00:22:25,359
suffering with what was called

544
00:22:30,419 --> 00:22:27,729
schizophrenia this hearing of tormenting

545
00:22:32,369 --> 00:22:30,429
of voices continuously encouraging them

546
00:22:34,649 --> 00:22:32,379
to do negative violent things running

547
00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:34,659
them down the whole time and he became

548
00:22:39,989 --> 00:22:37,329
firmly convinced this was all the

549
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:39,999
worldly spirit contact coming through it

550
00:22:43,829 --> 00:22:41,919
was factor of that he derived a method

551
00:22:46,169 --> 00:22:43,839
which helped people from viewing it that

552
00:22:50,459 --> 00:22:46,179
way okay but if we go with that then

553
00:22:52,709 --> 00:22:50,469
it's the question of what effect has

554
00:22:54,839 --> 00:22:52,719
that world had on this historically

555
00:22:58,499 --> 00:22:54,849
becomes what we just can't not ask

556
00:23:00,029 --> 00:22:58,509
anymore okay because we tend to look at

557
00:23:01,919 --> 00:23:00,039
it at individual levels both good and

558
00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:01,929
bad like people might have mediumistic

559
00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:03,849
contact with family members or people

560
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:05,769
might be tormented by something they

561
00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:07,450
consider to be a Hungry Ghost or a

562
00:23:11,399 --> 00:23:09,940
demonic entity but it's surely not just

563
00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:11,409
then on an individual that were what

564
00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:12,820
what if we acknowledge the existence

565
00:23:17,159 --> 00:23:15,070
this realm it becomes inevitable that is

566
00:23:20,099 --> 00:23:17,169
having a global effect doesn't it that's

567
00:23:24,839 --> 00:23:20,109
the way I'd look at it absolutely and

568
00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:24,849
when I heard you say that on the show it

569
00:23:29,099 --> 00:23:27,849
was like an aha moment of like of course

570
00:23:32,159 --> 00:23:29,109
of course

571
00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:32,169
and why aren't more people going there

572
00:23:36,989 --> 00:23:34,329
and I understand it you know I

573
00:23:39,239 --> 00:23:36,999
understand we get into near-death

574
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:39,249
experience for example and we're going

575
00:23:43,049 --> 00:23:41,919
to kind of plow through all the first

576
00:23:45,239 --> 00:23:43,059
we're going to look at the science you

577
00:23:46,979 --> 00:23:45,249
know it is it real is it the last gasp

578
00:23:48,629 --> 00:23:46,989
of a dying bringing and we're gonna beat

579
00:23:49,889 --> 00:23:48,639
down all the skeptics and all that and

580
00:23:51,419 --> 00:23:49,899
then we're going to take such pride and

581
00:23:53,489 --> 00:23:51,429
wrap ourselves around the data that we

582
00:23:57,810 --> 00:23:53,499
have it is real my god

583
00:23:59,729 --> 00:23:57,820
you know you do and then you're gonna

584
00:24:02,819 --> 00:23:59,739
dive into the accounts and you're gonna

585
00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:02,829
look at all the accounts and say wow you

586
00:24:06,719 --> 00:24:04,950
know isn't is awesome and life

587
00:24:08,399 --> 00:24:06,729
transforming and spiritually

588
00:24:10,879 --> 00:24:08,409
transformative experience and how you're

589
00:24:12,899 --> 00:24:10,889
changed and all that stuff it is awesome

590
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:12,909
but then when you're going to take a

591
00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:14,050
step back

592
00:24:20,370 --> 00:24:16,840
you're gonna say what does this now mean

593
00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:20,380
in terms of the larger implications for

594
00:24:24,690 --> 00:24:22,990
extended consciousness and you arrive at

595
00:24:28,260 --> 00:24:24,700
the kind of questions that you just

596
00:24:32,150 --> 00:24:28,270
asked well if there are these other

597
00:24:36,650 --> 00:24:32,160
forces and they are both monovalent and

598
00:24:39,570 --> 00:24:36,660
benevolent what how are they impacting

599
00:24:42,510 --> 00:24:39,580
the rest of the world that I lived I

600
00:24:45,780 --> 00:24:42,520
live in beyond me beyond my family

601
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:45,790
beyond my mother who I connected with in

602
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:48,850
a medium reading how are they connecting

603
00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:52,810
with these people who perpetrated 9/11

604
00:25:01,710 --> 00:24:58,690
why I that's a question that I think is

605
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:01,720
a way that you connect these things that

606
00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:03,520
we need so much more of because I don't

607
00:25:09,270 --> 00:25:06,100
know who else is is stepping into that

608
00:25:10,530 --> 00:25:09,280
void well I seen historically like

609
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:10,540
you've had them I think his name is

610
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:13,330
Jason Horsley on the show and he talked

611
00:25:18,030 --> 00:25:14,890
about his research I read all the people

612
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:18,040
saying the same thing about him John D

613
00:25:22,650 --> 00:25:20,170
is considered the intellectual architect

614
00:25:27,330 --> 00:25:22,660
of the British Empire he had the idea of

615
00:25:30,420 --> 00:25:27,340
this maritime Empire and he got it out

616
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:30,430
of scrying sessions where some spirit

617
00:25:35,730 --> 00:25:33,250
being claiming to be the alka Archangel

618
00:25:38,610 --> 00:25:35,740
Michael came through and given the whole

619
00:25:40,620 --> 00:25:38,620
idea of this so the British Empire I

620
00:25:42,540 --> 00:25:40,630
suppose you could say morphed into the

621
00:25:45,390 --> 00:25:42,550
anglo-american Empire so you have the

622
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:45,400
dominant power structure of the past 300

623
00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:48,610
years came through a spirit being

624
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:51,390
claimed from the Archangel Michael no

625
00:25:55,470 --> 00:25:53,410
how do you write that into a history

626
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:55,480
books you know well and then take that

627
00:25:59,040 --> 00:25:57,250
one step further because this is the

628
00:26:02,640 --> 00:25:59,050
kind of deep dive stuff that we got to

629
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:02,650
do because you're talking about hungry

630
00:26:08,430 --> 00:26:05,220
ghosts and you're talking about

631
00:26:09,870 --> 00:26:08,440
deception in that realm which is really

632
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:09,880
where we have to go and we have to start

633
00:26:17,660 --> 00:26:13,600
pulling that apart and that experience

634
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:17,670
of John Dee has all the earmarks of

635
00:26:23,820 --> 00:26:21,130
deception so like you had a great

636
00:26:26,010 --> 00:26:23,830
interview with Claire broad who I just

637
00:26:26,850 --> 00:26:26,020
interviewed recently as well and my

638
00:26:28,799 --> 00:26:26,860
interview is not

639
00:26:29,820 --> 00:26:28,809
but you guys did a great great job in

640
00:26:33,180 --> 00:26:29,830
that interview and one of the things

641
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:33,190
that you asked Claire is hey I have a

642
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:35,490
number of people who are worried about

643
00:26:40,889 --> 00:26:37,890
you know encountering

644
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:40,899
evil entities Minh Evelyn entities in

645
00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:43,450
this other room and she was very I think

646
00:26:47,399 --> 00:26:45,820
she's awesome person I really really

647
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:47,409
appreciate her and I think she was being

648
00:26:51,060 --> 00:26:49,210
totally upfront when she says look I

649
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:51,070
don't encounter that I've been doing

650
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:53,440
this for 22 years it does not come up

651
00:26:59,039 --> 00:26:55,210
and that couple times it does come up I

652
00:27:02,759 --> 00:26:59,049
don't go there and it goes away I get

653
00:27:04,740 --> 00:27:02,769
that from my own spiritual understanding

654
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:04,750
I get the secret of the ascent is to

655
00:27:09,659 --> 00:27:06,370
always look up that you can always

656
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:09,669
choose light over dark and I get that on

657
00:27:15,299 --> 00:27:13,450
a as above so below level in terms of

658
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:15,309
you you want to go looking for darkness

659
00:27:21,629 --> 00:27:18,850
to enter the spiritual realm you can

660
00:27:23,460 --> 00:27:21,639
just drive around your neighborhood and

661
00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:23,470
you'll find plenty of darkness and

662
00:27:28,169 --> 00:27:24,820
you'll find plenty of people who are

663
00:27:32,629 --> 00:27:28,179
doing horribly evil things so I get that

664
00:27:38,789 --> 00:27:32,639
on both of those levels what I don't

665
00:27:42,570 --> 00:27:38,799
fully understand is how we connect that

666
00:27:45,230 --> 00:27:42,580
with the deep impact that that these

667
00:27:47,519 --> 00:27:45,240
beings seem to be having on our

668
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:47,529
governments on our there's no other way

669
00:27:56,279 --> 00:27:51,850
to put it I mean our it's hard to see

670
00:28:00,750 --> 00:27:56,289
back to 9/11 it's hard to see that other

671
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:00,760
than evil on so many levels and not evil

672
00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:03,730
in terms of I mean evil are evil the

673
00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:07,120
United States are evil if we pull in

674
00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:08,830
other people's Mossad is evil is

675
00:28:14,370 --> 00:28:11,830
Israel's evil Saudi Arabia is evil so be

676
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:14,380
it but there's a lot of you there's

677
00:28:19,019 --> 00:28:16,240
enough to go around there where's the

678
00:28:20,399 --> 00:28:19,029
light in that I'll just return to the

679
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:20,409
point I made earlier that this is if

680
00:28:23,789 --> 00:28:21,760
you're crossing the line into

681
00:28:25,019 --> 00:28:23,799
acknowledging the reality of this realm

682
00:28:26,669 --> 00:28:25,029
whatever it is it becomes an

683
00:28:28,139 --> 00:28:26,679
inevitability right that it's having

684
00:28:31,259 --> 00:28:28,149
this massive effect in the world that

685
00:28:31,889 --> 00:28:31,269
we're not acknowledging and as to what I

686
00:28:34,590 --> 00:28:31,899
think of it

687
00:28:36,180 --> 00:28:34,600
I want to proceed cautiously because I

688
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:36,190
feel around the kind of thing we've done

689
00:28:40,350 --> 00:28:38,559
with the CIA and Alex Asian and Islamic

690
00:28:41,820 --> 00:28:40,360
hijackers

691
00:28:43,289 --> 00:28:41,830
we've stepped very cautiously step by

692
00:28:45,060 --> 00:28:43,299
step proving everything along the way to

693
00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:45,070
have something that's very solid okay

694
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:47,110
and whilst I might take the leaps in

695
00:28:51,330 --> 00:28:49,570
speculative conversations I want to take

696
00:28:55,230 --> 00:28:51,340
my time and receive very cautiously in

697
00:28:57,539 --> 00:28:55,240
this kind of area too and I wonder about

698
00:29:01,200 --> 00:28:57,549
that Richard and that's one thing I plan

699
00:29:04,770 --> 00:29:01,210
on doing differently as I move forward

700
00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:04,780
is a lot more leaps because because

701
00:29:09,030 --> 00:29:07,030
you're there but I interview so many

702
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:09,040
people that need to be pushed into that

703
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:11,770
leap yeah so um

704
00:29:17,820 --> 00:29:15,250
I certainly agree with you know placing

705
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:17,830
our attention on that area and taking

706
00:29:24,049 --> 00:29:21,490
leaps and such however what I what I

707
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:24,059
also see and this is not a factor in

708
00:29:30,450 --> 00:29:26,890
skeptical right but I do see out there

709
00:29:31,890 --> 00:29:30,460
that there can be people people take a

710
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:31,900
lot of leaps in the conspiracy world

711
00:29:35,820 --> 00:29:34,650
into very unsubstantiated information

712
00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:35,830
okay

713
00:29:40,230 --> 00:29:38,320
and I think certain traps are set for

714
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:40,240
people right there's two ways you can

715
00:29:46,919 --> 00:29:43,809
short down a solid investigation into

716
00:29:48,659 --> 00:29:46,929
state violence one is to be dismissive

717
00:29:49,980 --> 00:29:48,669
off it and say you're a bunch of fools

718
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:49,990
you're exaggerating your fans sister of

719
00:29:54,210 --> 00:29:52,330
conspiracy theorists and the other is to

720
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:54,220
say yeah and not only that but the

721
00:29:57,060 --> 00:29:55,330
planes were Holograms and they were

722
00:29:59,850 --> 00:29:57,070
being directed by energy weapons from

723
00:30:01,140 --> 00:29:59,860
outer space now whilst I can't you know

724
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:01,150
glue the flames well the ground and so

725
00:30:10,140 --> 00:30:07,450
on and grossly exaggerated claims are a

726
00:30:11,820 --> 00:30:10,150
way of covering things up so conspiracy

727
00:30:14,909 --> 00:30:11,830
theory can become a part of the official

728
00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:14,919
core and that's all I mean by not easily

729
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:17,340
I would go one step further is it always

730
00:30:24,180 --> 00:30:21,010
is always a tactic as part of the

731
00:30:27,180 --> 00:30:24,190
cover-up so I look at you know what's

732
00:30:29,970 --> 00:30:27,190
going on today I'd say one that that I

733
00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:29,980
have a hunch kind of from another angle

734
00:30:36,090 --> 00:30:33,070
the whole flat earth thing absolutely

735
00:30:38,930 --> 00:30:36,100
the traction that it got yeah what are

736
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:38,940
your things my hunch is that that was

737
00:30:45,180 --> 00:30:43,120
fed watered and nurtured along as a way

738
00:30:47,730 --> 00:30:45,190
of kind of pointing at something and

739
00:30:49,919 --> 00:30:47,740
going and look at how stupid people are

740
00:30:51,930 --> 00:30:49,929
to believe that well both of those

741
00:30:53,910 --> 00:30:51,940
things I was a bit ahead of the curve if

742
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:53,920
you're part of my expression on

743
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:56,530
Flattr of kazan years ago I had a bit of

744
00:30:59,370 --> 00:30:57,850
philosophy of science course and my

745
00:31:01,380 --> 00:30:59,380
teacher he always wanted to base like

746
00:31:03,060 --> 00:31:01,390
the whole year's course around the flat

747
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:03,070
earth right and this is this is when

748
00:31:06,930 --> 00:31:04,570
they were like ten legitimate flat

749
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:06,940
earthers in the world okay so I'm

750
00:31:11,850 --> 00:31:08,890
assuming he's delighted by the recent

751
00:31:13,410 --> 00:31:11,860
turn of events I on the other hand did

752
00:31:15,210 --> 00:31:13,420
not want to do that because I felt there

753
00:31:17,070 --> 00:31:15,220
are so many real controversies in the

754
00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:17,080
world like the things that science takes

755
00:31:21,570 --> 00:31:18,910
absolutely for granted which I don't

756
00:31:23,310 --> 00:31:21,580
think should be the fastest is not worth

757
00:31:25,530 --> 00:31:23,320
my time and I like continued of that so

758
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:25,540
I think two things one I hope to live

759
00:31:29,310 --> 00:31:27,250
long enough to see the CIA documents

760
00:31:31,980 --> 00:31:29,320
Declassified ago they did see the Flat

761
00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:31,990
Earth story on t YouTube okay they will

762
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:35,020
hustle of course of course I suspect

763
00:31:39,030 --> 00:31:36,850
that it's been helped along of course

764
00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:39,040
and and the second floor again I'm just

765
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:41,230
just parroting what what you said Alex

766
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:42,970
it's an interesting sociological

767
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:44,890
phenomena that breakdown of trust

768
00:31:49,020 --> 00:31:46,930
because I remember myself and make the

769
00:31:50,370 --> 00:31:49,030
admission I was and I was not a flat

770
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:50,380
earther but I certainly questioned

771
00:31:54,270 --> 00:31:52,720
things when I was 10 right because I'm

772
00:31:56,550 --> 00:31:54,280
very interested in science and I

773
00:31:58,350 --> 00:31:56,560
remember like holding a ball open

774
00:32:00,480 --> 00:31:58,360
imagining it hands walking around it in

775
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:00,490
my school class and thinking like if it

776
00:32:03,060 --> 00:32:01,450
why don't people in the southern

777
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:03,070
hemisphere fall off right because this

778
00:32:06,510 --> 00:32:04,810
is natural impulse to move downwards

779
00:32:08,550 --> 00:32:06,520
this is that and then you know I found

780
00:32:12,450 --> 00:32:08,560
out about gravity in Newton and oh okay

781
00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:12,460
that's it so I think and if I was to

782
00:32:16,550 --> 00:32:14,080
take something positive from this it

783
00:32:18,570 --> 00:32:16,560
seems like maybe on a societal level and

784
00:32:21,150 --> 00:32:18,580
society is going through that kind of

785
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:21,160
hang on I trust so little of what you

786
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:22,570
say now I don't even believe you've got

787
00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:24,610
the shape of the earth right okay and I

788
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:26,620
can take a positive from it in that way

789
00:32:31,140 --> 00:32:29,890
in there I imagine a lot of people who

790
00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:31,150
were that other there's two or three

791
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:34,720
years ago or are now will not be now or

792
00:32:37,470 --> 00:32:36,310
will not be in five years time I

793
00:32:38,340 --> 00:32:37,480
wouldn't be surprised at all it's

794
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:38,350
something they want to do very

795
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:40,210
interesting things in other areas and

796
00:32:45,330 --> 00:32:42,610
this is like the foundational thing for

797
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:45,340
them and indeed and one thing I learned

798
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:47,710
from spending time on your forum I'm not

799
00:32:50,010 --> 00:32:48,730
going to get the term right but there

800
00:32:53,220 --> 00:32:50,020
were two gentlemen on there talking

801
00:32:55,050 --> 00:32:53,230
about how there's a way of inquiry that

802
00:32:56,910 --> 00:32:55,060
when you start off by going to the most

803
00:32:58,770 --> 00:32:56,920
extreme proposition and then working

804
00:33:00,180 --> 00:32:58,780
your way into the center I can't recall

805
00:33:01,710 --> 00:33:00,190
that I'd keep me need to go back home

806
00:33:03,930 --> 00:33:01,720
from through the skeptical forums and

807
00:33:05,730 --> 00:33:03,940
find the term because I was a new one to

808
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:05,740
me but I think that's that it's

809
00:33:09,090 --> 00:33:07,330
something that I've won

810
00:33:11,419 --> 00:33:09,100
the adopted and maybe what I see people

811
00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:11,429
adopting now with with the Flat Earth

812
00:33:18,239 --> 00:33:14,049
interesting interesting

813
00:33:21,239 --> 00:33:18,249
let's return to the non-dual thing yep

814
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:21,249
and explaining what that is what spend

815
00:33:29,759 --> 00:33:26,970
your experience with it and if it is I

816
00:33:33,060 --> 00:33:29,769
don't know want to say an alternative to

817
00:33:35,549 --> 00:33:33,070
but it does seem to be from my own

818
00:33:39,180 --> 00:33:35,559
experience with it and it being part of

819
00:33:41,999 --> 00:33:39,190
my spiritual path being somewhat of an

820
00:33:46,590 --> 00:33:42,009
answer to the questions that we were

821
00:33:49,979 --> 00:33:46,600
raising in terms of the Hungry Ghost the

822
00:33:53,330 --> 00:33:49,989
malevolent forces that are so dominant

823
00:33:58,919 --> 00:33:53,340
in our political lives and in our

824
00:34:01,440 --> 00:33:58,929
society yeah well I think it's a it's an

825
00:34:03,629 --> 00:34:01,450
answer to everything but the detail okay

826
00:34:06,180 --> 00:34:03,639
so it's a way we can navigate our way

827
00:34:07,739 --> 00:34:06,190
through all these subjects and without

828
00:34:09,990 --> 00:34:07,749
necessarily knowing all the hungry

829
00:34:11,099 --> 00:34:10,000
ghosts aliens or alien hungry ghosts and

830
00:34:13,139 --> 00:34:11,109
some of the detail like that it doesn't

831
00:34:14,579 --> 00:34:13,149
give us but in terms of like if you're

832
00:34:18,750 --> 00:34:14,589
being attacked by a Hungry Ghost how

833
00:34:21,210 --> 00:34:18,760
what do you do about that then and we

834
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:21,220
can look there for support in that so

835
00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:22,690
what would you like on would you like a

836
00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:25,260
biography for me of my involvement or

837
00:34:31,950 --> 00:34:28,089
yeah that'd be that'd be fine would

838
00:34:33,839 --> 00:34:31,960
elevate the biographies probably one of

839
00:34:35,399 --> 00:34:33,849
more interesting things about me I

840
00:34:38,339 --> 00:34:35,409
suppose somehow I'll give you that and

841
00:34:40,230 --> 00:34:38,349
so it started for me is like reasonably

842
00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:40,240
jaded sixteen-year-old who had rejected

843
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:42,990
his religious upbringing in favor of a

844
00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:47,290
materialist atheism and finding the lack

845
00:34:51,780 --> 00:34:49,569
of meaning contained within that was

846
00:34:56,129 --> 00:34:51,790
starting to weigh evermore heavily okay

847
00:34:58,530 --> 00:34:56,139
as I dragged into that position and I've

848
00:35:00,960 --> 00:34:58,540
never heard anyone else quite have this

849
00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:00,970
story but for me it started with going

850
00:35:06,690 --> 00:35:03,280
to the pub and drinking some whiskey

851
00:35:08,940 --> 00:35:06,700
okay and whatever that did to me okay

852
00:35:12,270 --> 00:35:08,950
the next day I would wake up in this

853
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:12,280
kind of absolute all the world off just

854
00:35:17,339 --> 00:35:15,280
bliss and I would like walk around in

855
00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:17,349
the garden feeling the life force in the

856
00:35:22,789 --> 00:35:19,609
trees and the grass under my feet

857
00:35:23,749 --> 00:35:22,799
struggling to find any description of

858
00:35:26,210 --> 00:35:23,759
what just happened to me

859
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:26,220
but the best I could come up with

860
00:35:29,809 --> 00:35:27,930
fitting into a kind of the Christian

861
00:35:31,759 --> 00:35:29,819
upbringing I had was like it felt like I

862
00:35:34,249 --> 00:35:31,769
knew that heaven existed in this world

863
00:35:36,499 --> 00:35:34,259
was a small part of something timeless

864
00:35:38,589 --> 00:35:36,509
beyond it that we come from and return

865
00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:38,599
to and that sense of knowledge

866
00:35:44,630 --> 00:35:43,200
eradicated my sense of panic about life

867
00:35:46,430 --> 00:35:44,640
my worrying about the future my

868
00:35:49,039 --> 00:35:46,440
threating about what I hadn't done and

869
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:49,049
everything was just bliss and then war

870
00:35:53,269 --> 00:35:50,880
off by the next day and I was back like

871
00:35:54,829 --> 00:35:53,279
it went Garside and start to broke my

872
00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:54,839
hand against the trillion think where

873
00:35:58,460 --> 00:35:56,640
did that amazing sense of how alive this

874
00:36:01,880 --> 00:35:58,470
tree was it's completely gone I'm locked

875
00:36:03,769 --> 00:36:01,890
in what just happened and I'd never

876
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:03,779
heard anyone talk about this door fro I

877
00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:06,690
was there I would I remembered some

878
00:36:10,249 --> 00:36:08,609
fragments of some poem by Blake about

879
00:36:12,049 --> 00:36:10,259
eternity in the palm fronds hand and

880
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:12,059
heaven in a wild flower and that sounded

881
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:13,650
kind of similar sand maybe but I didn't

882
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:15,359
know as far as I was concerned I could

883
00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:16,650
be the only person that ever experiences

884
00:36:22,190 --> 00:36:18,089
know what no was talking about it and

885
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:22,200
and how that was a reoccurring thing

886
00:36:25,759 --> 00:36:23,730
then bright I knew it was something to

887
00:36:27,289 --> 00:36:25,769
do with shifting consciousness right so

888
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:27,299
like that's drugs and meditation you

889
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:29,250
know one of those words and I got into

890
00:36:34,609 --> 00:36:30,960
eastern martial arts and sort of

891
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:34,619
practicing meditation and my initial

892
00:36:43,099 --> 00:36:38,640
experience of that was them very not

893
00:36:44,660 --> 00:36:43,109
like what I'd experienced then because I

894
00:36:47,180 --> 00:36:44,670
heard this thing about being the moment

895
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:47,190
in Zen life oh yeah I know I never

896
00:36:51,049 --> 00:36:48,720
thought about it that way but I was very

897
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:51,059
at the moment for those for those times

898
00:36:55,460 --> 00:36:54,000
but it seemed very cart before horse to

899
00:36:57,109 --> 00:36:55,470
me as well that seemed like if you

900
00:36:59,210 --> 00:36:57,119
continue to push yourself into the

901
00:37:00,680 --> 00:36:59,220
moment and you know korvac will gently

902
00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:00,690
pull your attention back they're

903
00:37:05,180 --> 00:37:02,609
continuously then you'll start to feel

904
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:05,190
really good and to me that was mistaken

905
00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:07,890
the result for the cause okay because

906
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:09,359
it's like no no something happened deep

907
00:37:12,049 --> 00:37:10,650
within me I'm not quite sure about and

908
00:37:13,220 --> 00:37:12,059
that allowed me to be very relaxed and

909
00:37:16,099 --> 00:37:13,230
present in the moment it's not that I

910
00:37:18,410 --> 00:37:16,109
this is very arduous and my experience

911
00:37:21,079 --> 00:37:18,420
is anything bought and but I did get

912
00:37:22,490 --> 00:37:21,089
drawn into that and it was an experience

913
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:22,500
of being because I didn't have a better

914
00:37:26,809 --> 00:37:24,569
solution I threw my lot and of that one

915
00:37:28,309 --> 00:37:26,819
it got sold to me and that was my

916
00:37:30,380 --> 00:37:28,319
experience being involved in somewhat

917
00:37:31,930 --> 00:37:30,390
coltish mentality and thinking I was

918
00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:31,940
gonna attain lightened and

919
00:37:35,470 --> 00:37:33,470
I was gonna make my mind go snap and I

920
00:37:37,089 --> 00:37:35,480
did it probably good overall that I had

921
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:37,099
that in my life that experience of like

922
00:37:43,779 --> 00:37:40,640
being an idiot and because um if I can

923
00:37:45,549 --> 00:37:43,789
reflect upon it now but then I really

924
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:45,559
after two or three years started to

925
00:37:52,359 --> 00:37:47,030
question the underpinnings of what I was

926
00:37:54,370 --> 00:37:52,369
doing and moved away from that into I

927
00:38:00,099 --> 00:37:54,380
was very influenced by a radical Tony

928
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:00,109
Parsons acceptance of what is and then I

929
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:01,490
suppose really through through meeting

930
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:05,210
Tim and exploring his work more this

931
00:38:11,529 --> 00:38:07,130
sense of finding a return to that place

932
00:38:12,910 --> 00:38:11,539
and opening up non-dual States but doing

933
00:38:15,430 --> 00:38:12,920
it the way that was more obvious to me

934
00:38:17,380 --> 00:38:15,440
of delving into this deeper in a sense

935
00:38:19,089 --> 00:38:17,390
of consciousness that's very connected

936
00:38:21,010 --> 00:38:19,099
or perhaps the same as the sleep stage

937
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:21,020
but going there consciously and that

938
00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:24,170
then changing world al woods and and and

939
00:38:28,809 --> 00:38:26,510
refined in that place very like TS Eliot

940
00:38:30,430 --> 00:38:28,819
hmm the end of all our traveling we

941
00:38:31,750 --> 00:38:30,440
shall arrive back at place from where we

942
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:31,760
started and know it for the first time

943
00:38:36,819 --> 00:38:34,160
that was what what struck over about a

944
00:38:40,150 --> 00:38:36,829
10-year period of likely finding that 16

945
00:38:42,339 --> 00:38:40,160
year old experience and I take it from

946
00:38:46,089 --> 00:38:42,349
understanding your biography deeper not

947
00:38:48,789 --> 00:38:46,099
an easy path not a path without bumps

948
00:38:50,380 --> 00:38:48,799
and doubts and all the other things well

949
00:38:53,980 --> 00:38:50,390
the big one was there was a period of

950
00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:53,990
depression when I things were generally

951
00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:55,609
only up for me until I got to about 23

952
00:38:59,620 --> 00:38:58,160
life was better my social contacts got

953
00:39:02,410 --> 00:38:59,630
it so I thought you know so all go to

954
00:39:03,579 --> 00:39:02,420
the right direction and then this this

955
00:39:05,260 --> 00:39:03,589
overwhelming sense of depression

956
00:39:07,839 --> 00:39:05,270
engulfed me which was a big surprise

957
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:07,849
right because it was not know what I

958
00:39:12,609 --> 00:39:09,890
expected not the way things have been

959
00:39:15,460 --> 00:39:12,619
going and and that the way things are

960
00:39:19,660 --> 00:39:15,470
drawn up and paths that you were

961
00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:19,670
supposedly and yeah I mean yeah I can't

962
00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:21,529
remember if I was I think I was shocked

963
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:23,089
I think I cuz I thought if I encountered

964
00:39:27,279 --> 00:39:24,170
something like that it maybe last a day

965
00:39:29,380 --> 00:39:27,289
or two and then I'd you know get myself

966
00:39:30,970 --> 00:39:29,390
out of it I mean I was aware of John of

967
00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:30,980
the Cross and talking I didn't soul and

968
00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:31,910
that kind of thing but I don't know how

969
00:39:36,279 --> 00:39:34,910
much I really related to it and it went

970
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:36,289
on for so long I felt like well maybe

971
00:39:39,339 --> 00:39:37,520
this is it for me maybe it's you know

972
00:39:41,559 --> 00:39:39,349
time to start taking lithium and making

973
00:39:42,789 --> 00:39:41,569
the best of it I didn't really think

974
00:39:44,289 --> 00:39:42,799
about how I feel about how to you know

975
00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:44,299
maybe just don't forget how to live with

976
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:45,110
this rather than

977
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:48,050
then get over it and bought two to give

978
00:39:51,940 --> 00:39:49,970
us of esoteric analysis of that what was

979
00:39:55,570 --> 00:39:51,950
going on for me was it was a transition

980
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:55,580
between from belief to the real okay so

981
00:40:00,460 --> 00:39:58,370
what I found I dog was I bought into a

982
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:00,470
lot of concepts like the law of garden

983
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:03,410
and so on and and believed in that and

984
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:04,970
during my meditations with great

985
00:40:09,250 --> 00:40:06,890
aspiration as I would come into contact

986
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:09,260
with such a feeling and after a certain

987
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:10,970
time period having to recognize round

988
00:40:15,220 --> 00:40:13,010
yeah it's not really real for me

989
00:40:17,530 --> 00:40:15,230
something I believe in but I've never

990
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:17,540
felt the love of God rather all the love

991
00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:19,370
I felt comes from other people and

992
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:20,720
that's transient it's here one minute

993
00:40:27,370 --> 00:40:25,610
gone the next and this sense of what I

994
00:40:30,070 --> 00:40:27,380
find inside myself and I look into my

995
00:40:31,390 --> 00:40:30,080
depth is a sense of emptiness I used to

996
00:40:33,210 --> 00:40:31,400
call it the noth-nothing because it

997
00:40:36,070 --> 00:40:33,220
wasn't even nothingness it was just an

998
00:40:37,690 --> 00:40:36,080
absence and absolute absence of meaning

999
00:40:40,030 --> 00:40:37,700
anything and when I would meditate

1000
00:40:41,590 --> 00:40:40,040
that's what I'd find that horrified me

1001
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:41,600
and not just in an intellectual when it

1002
00:40:45,310 --> 00:40:43,910
was a deep embodied sense of horror that

1003
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:45,320
that's what was underpinning all things

1004
00:40:51,970 --> 00:40:49,810
absolute absence of meaning and I had I

1005
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:51,980
eventually encountered the writing

1006
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:52,850
someone who'd gone through a similar

1007
00:40:57,940 --> 00:40:56,000
experience and I feel what I'd lacked on

1008
00:41:00,430 --> 00:40:57,950
to that point was the tenacity to just

1009
00:41:03,550 --> 00:41:00,440
stay on the edge of that inner blackness

1010
00:41:06,490 --> 00:41:03,560
for long enough and in reading this

1011
00:41:09,340 --> 00:41:06,500
account and I resolved to do just that

1012
00:41:10,810 --> 00:41:09,350
and i sat up into the night and on the

1013
00:41:12,970 --> 00:41:10,820
edge of despair until I got really late

1014
00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:12,980
or I'd better go to bed but I will be

1015
00:41:17,110 --> 00:41:14,240
resuming this tomorrow morning this is

1016
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:17,120
what are we doing forevermore now and I

1017
00:41:22,420 --> 00:41:18,650
would often wake up for a fit of despair

1018
00:41:23,530 --> 00:41:22,430
at about 4 a.m. and seem to sweat a lot

1019
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:23,540
when you're depressed had very sweaty

1020
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:26,090
feet at that time so I woke up for my

1021
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:28,130
usual fidget is there and I saw everyone

1022
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:30,110
I knew and who had some meeting my

1023
00:41:34,030 --> 00:41:30,650
wife's like

1024
00:41:37,390 --> 00:41:34,040
still around me and it's very vivid

1025
00:41:38,860 --> 00:41:37,400
dreaming wake like state and they all

1026
00:41:40,690 --> 00:41:38,870
started shooting off into the distance

1027
00:41:42,250 --> 00:41:40,700
and everyone represented a little supply

1028
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:42,260
of logs that was coming into me that was

1029
00:41:46,450 --> 00:41:44,330
now gone until they got down to bomb

1030
00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:46,460
person who had been like err and very

1031
00:41:50,590 --> 00:41:48,800
kind to me as we could friend there was

1032
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:50,600
a big sister kind of thing and then she

1033
00:41:55,170 --> 00:41:52,400
went and I just had this bone of the

1034
00:41:58,360 --> 00:41:55,180
fetal loneliness and then his oceanic

1035
00:41:59,050 --> 00:41:58,370
infinite sense of love opened up okay it

1036
00:42:01,660 --> 00:41:59,060
was just like

1037
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:01,670
bigger than the universe and it was this

1038
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:05,210
classical advisor non-dual experience if

1039
00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:06,710
we are swimming in an ocean of log when

1040
00:42:10,710 --> 00:42:09,110
I saw all these people in that I saw

1041
00:42:12,850 --> 00:42:10,720
people had problems with and I felt

1042
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:12,860
apologetic that I'd ever needed them to

1043
00:42:18,580 --> 00:42:14,930
be a certain way because I was this and

1044
00:42:20,050 --> 00:42:18,590
we were all this and much like people

1045
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:20,060
say with the near-death experience thing

1046
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:22,370
of p.m. at water would say say that the

1047
00:42:26,260 --> 00:42:23,810
the proof of the pudding is in the

1048
00:42:27,820 --> 00:42:26,270
lasting effects saying I woke up the

1049
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:27,830
next morning and my depression was gone

1050
00:42:31,210 --> 00:42:29,690
right and I didn't know there was gone

1051
00:42:33,580 --> 00:42:31,220
for a while I'd get like a couple of

1052
00:42:35,590 --> 00:42:33,590
weeks went by I was like is it not going

1053
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:35,600
back and I really knew what I went and

1054
00:42:39,730 --> 00:42:37,850
got drunk and it would always really hit

1055
00:42:41,770 --> 00:42:39,740
me if I was drunk and I got drunk with a

1056
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:41,780
friend and wasn't there at all and then

1057
00:42:46,860 --> 00:42:44,450
and never did never never resurface that

1058
00:42:49,110 --> 00:42:46,870
was and then my subsequent

1059
00:42:52,450 --> 00:42:49,120
investigations of non-duality were like

1060
00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:52,460
what was that and how do i I've sort of

1061
00:42:56,740 --> 00:42:55,520
fallen into this into this they prove a

1062
00:42:59,530 --> 00:42:56,750
lot of intensity and a lot of suffering

1063
00:43:04,120 --> 00:42:59,540
but and let's try to understand that a

1064
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:04,130
bit more properly awesome just totally

1065
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:07,610
are some stuff to questions I guess what

1066
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:10,130
have you discovered since then what are

1067
00:43:14,380 --> 00:43:11,570
some of the most meaningful discussions

1068
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:14,390
I know you still are interested in

1069
00:43:22,060 --> 00:43:18,050
trauma and in grief and in people who

1070
00:43:25,390 --> 00:43:22,070
are overcoming and I think you feel a

1071
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:25,400
need to support people in that wonderful

1072
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:28,850
way but I can't help but tying this back

1073
00:43:34,860 --> 00:43:31,130
to the earlier part of our conversation

1074
00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:34,870
why is still there that you need to

1075
00:43:41,470 --> 00:43:38,960
understand it in terms of our world like

1076
00:43:43,540 --> 00:43:41,480
9/11 because the the world is a

1077
00:43:45,490 --> 00:43:43,550
reflection of consciousness I think it's

1078
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:45,500
in such a dream okay so not on a

1079
00:43:49,750 --> 00:43:47,330
collective level we tried 9/11 in some

1080
00:43:52,780 --> 00:43:49,760
way and what's this but let me offer a

1081
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:52,790
counter hypothesis that you'll hear on

1082
00:43:56,890 --> 00:43:54,560
the non-dual path and I've shared it on

1083
00:43:59,170 --> 00:43:56,900
this show it's the mother hugging Saint

1084
00:44:03,600 --> 00:43:59,180
world what world you know so Amma is

1085
00:44:05,890 --> 00:44:03,610
this woman who at 13 had this amazing

1086
00:44:07,780 --> 00:44:05,900
spiritually transformative experience in

1087
00:44:09,550 --> 00:44:07,790
India she was incredibly impoverished

1088
00:44:12,010 --> 00:44:09,560
but she knew she just had to devote her

1089
00:44:12,650 --> 00:44:12,020
life to God and she has and she goes

1090
00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:12,660
around

1091
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:14,400
supposedly does all these wonderful

1092
00:44:18,830 --> 00:44:16,160
things with people it works tirelessly

1093
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:18,840
18 hours a day just helping people

1094
00:44:23,090 --> 00:44:20,910
helping people helping people and one of

1095
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:23,100
her devotees goes here and says oh my

1096
00:44:26,180 --> 00:44:24,960
you're so busy you're doing all this

1097
00:44:28,610 --> 00:44:26,190
stuff for the world and yet you're

1098
00:44:30,620 --> 00:44:28,620
telling us we're not of this world and

1099
00:44:33,710 --> 00:44:30,630
that's what we hear from spiritual

1100
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:33,720
masters all the time which would this is

1101
00:44:37,970 --> 00:44:36,090
not this is not skeptical because I'm in

1102
00:44:40,670 --> 00:44:37,980
the world right I'm interested in this

1103
00:44:42,830 --> 00:44:40,680
stuff I'm interested in 9/11 and why

1104
00:44:44,690 --> 00:44:42,840
science is wrong about almost everything

1105
00:44:48,140 --> 00:44:44,700
and all these other things but there is

1106
00:44:50,900 --> 00:44:48,150
a part of me that says I'm doing that as

1107
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:50,910
a way of just kind of occupying myself

1108
00:44:56,540 --> 00:44:54,330
because I really know that on a deeper

1109
00:44:59,180 --> 00:44:56,550
deeper sense it really doesn't matter

1110
00:45:01,160 --> 00:44:59,190
like in the same way that you know some

1111
00:45:03,620 --> 00:45:01,170
of the near-death experiencers you've

1112
00:45:05,810 --> 00:45:03,630
had come on and said that said it on my

1113
00:45:10,250 --> 00:45:05,820
show - is it this is all just middle

1114
00:45:13,130 --> 00:45:10,260
stuff it doesn't cause me a problem or I

1115
00:45:16,370 --> 00:45:13,140
don't feel there's a contradiction now

1116
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:16,380
if you have some sort of psychological

1117
00:45:20,420 --> 00:45:18,960
issue where in watching a film at the

1118
00:45:22,310 --> 00:45:20,430
cinema you started to believe it was

1119
00:45:26,270 --> 00:45:22,320
real okay you would really want to stop

1120
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:26,280
that right and so if you're having that

1121
00:45:30,620 --> 00:45:29,250
kind of issue of not knowing it's an

1122
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:30,630
illusion you need to solve that first

1123
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:32,130
you need to get your mind answer yeah

1124
00:45:36,110 --> 00:45:34,050
it's okay I'm in a cinema it's fine

1125
00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:36,120
it's all good let's enjoy the show and

1126
00:45:39,590 --> 00:45:37,920
that's what I feel about the world

1127
00:45:43,340 --> 00:45:39,600
really I don't necessarily think it's

1128
00:45:45,410 --> 00:45:43,350
immensely important and on a grander

1129
00:45:47,300 --> 00:45:45,420
scheme of things but this is the dream

1130
00:45:50,030 --> 00:45:47,310
I'm having this is the art I'm observing

1131
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:50,040
so I want to fully engage with it and

1132
00:45:55,340 --> 00:45:53,760
indeed I think the non-dual allows

1133
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:55,350
altima Lee for deeper engagement because

1134
00:45:58,910 --> 00:45:57,210
again if you think the film is real

1135
00:46:00,380 --> 00:45:58,920
you're just going to want to run or

1136
00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:00,390
you're going to scream or something it

1137
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:01,710
doesn't allow you to really involve

1138
00:46:04,940 --> 00:46:02,850
yourself with anyone you know it's not

1139
00:46:07,220 --> 00:46:04,950
real if you have a sense the world isn't

1140
00:46:09,130 --> 00:46:07,230
real and that well we're that the

1141
00:46:11,620 --> 00:46:09,140
deepest part of us isn't in the world

1142
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:11,630
then there's the freedom to engage fully

1143
00:46:17,810 --> 00:46:15,090
of that answer I agree I didn't see that

1144
00:46:21,979 --> 00:46:17,820
coming but you're right okay you pick

1145
00:46:28,789 --> 00:46:25,099
I'm gonna say away from et well I what

1146
00:46:31,700 --> 00:46:28,799
do i suicide is that I thought you did

1147
00:46:34,099 --> 00:46:31,710
an excellent shadow suicide in

1148
00:46:37,789 --> 00:46:34,109
near-death experience with Angie

1149
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:37,799
Fenimore thumbnail sketch of her story

1150
00:46:45,620 --> 00:46:40,890
it's fascinating you know sexually

1151
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:45,630
abused traumatic yeah buries it all gets

1152
00:46:53,420 --> 00:46:49,049
to a point contemplates suicide attempt

1153
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:53,430
suicide has an NDE some people would

1154
00:46:58,789 --> 00:46:55,890
call it a hellish nde or traumatic NDE

1155
00:47:00,620 --> 00:46:58,799
but she says no this is the turning

1156
00:47:02,450 --> 00:47:00,630
point in that life and you know all

1157
00:47:06,009 --> 00:47:02,460
these things and she comes out of it

1158
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:06,019
with a mission to tell others that

1159
00:47:11,479 --> 00:47:09,450
suicide just can't possibly be an answer

1160
00:47:13,069 --> 00:47:11,489
because it's just didn't intermediary

1161
00:47:16,670 --> 00:47:13,079
step you know it doesn't get you

1162
00:47:18,229 --> 00:47:16,680
anywhere so an Angie Fenimore wrote a

1163
00:47:20,420 --> 00:47:18,239
book back in 90s called beyond the

1164
00:47:22,839 --> 00:47:20,430
darkness and it was a story of her life

1165
00:47:25,759 --> 00:47:22,849
which had a lot of trauma in it from

1166
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:25,769
childhood on up and then dealing of the

1167
00:47:31,069 --> 00:47:29,130
effects of that trauma in throughout her

1168
00:47:35,319 --> 00:47:31,079
adult life then her relationships and

1169
00:47:39,049 --> 00:47:35,329
such so all of this ultimately led to a

1170
00:47:40,759 --> 00:47:39,059
serious suicide attempt and she said she

1171
00:47:42,620 --> 00:47:40,769
she didn't attempt it she actually

1172
00:47:45,229 --> 00:47:42,630
succeeded actually she did cross over

1173
00:47:49,940 --> 00:47:45,239
that line into being dead and from

1174
00:47:52,819 --> 00:47:49,950
taking a lot of medication and inspired

1175
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:52,829
somewhat by near-death experience we've

1176
00:47:55,819 --> 00:47:54,930
had I've just try to pull some my memory

1177
00:47:58,099 --> 00:47:55,829
of her stepmother

1178
00:47:59,660 --> 00:47:58,109
who had made suicide attempt and talked

1179
00:48:01,729 --> 00:47:59,670
about this beautiful sense of love and

1180
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:01,739
light on the other side and I think

1181
00:48:05,059 --> 00:48:03,119
she'd come into contact with some other

1182
00:48:07,459 --> 00:48:05,069
literature around it and felt like

1183
00:48:09,589 --> 00:48:07,469
that's the ultimate escape from the

1184
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:09,599
trauma of the world is to go off into

1185
00:48:14,959 --> 00:48:11,729
this this place of love and light then

1186
00:48:18,469 --> 00:48:14,969
and and that's not what she encountered

1187
00:48:20,930 --> 00:48:18,479
she encountered a sense of stepping out

1188
00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:20,940
of her body but the problems all still

1189
00:48:24,559 --> 00:48:22,710
being there if she was still the same

1190
00:48:25,940 --> 00:48:24,569
and then a sense of all the people being

1191
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:25,950
around it who had just done a similar

1192
00:48:31,489 --> 00:48:29,119
thing and going to this place where

1193
00:48:32,539 --> 00:48:31,499
people were very very lost felt like

1194
00:48:33,819 --> 00:48:32,549
they've been there a long time just

1195
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:33,829
drawn into their own

1196
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:37,130
suffering consumed by it and realizing

1197
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:39,410
that this hasn't solved anything then

1198
00:48:44,589 --> 00:48:41,690
calling upon the light and having a

1199
00:48:47,349 --> 00:48:44,599
sense of God and Jesus coming and an

1200
00:48:48,819 --> 00:48:47,359
interaction with them then and this

1201
00:48:50,589 --> 00:48:48,829
sends people talk about it being more

1202
00:48:53,769 --> 00:48:50,599
real than the waking world and

1203
00:48:57,279 --> 00:48:53,779
ultimately waking off with a sense of

1204
00:48:59,079 --> 00:48:57,289
them a new sense of purpose and a new

1205
00:49:00,940 --> 00:48:59,089
sense of spirituality and then I don't

1206
00:49:03,579 --> 00:49:00,950
think everything has been sweetness and

1207
00:49:07,150 --> 00:49:03,589
light since then for her bought for me

1208
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:07,160
the book was I found very powerful in

1209
00:49:13,059 --> 00:49:10,130
the sense of like I might have had a

1210
00:49:16,259 --> 00:49:13,069
certain ideation around suicide nobody

1211
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:16,269
was ever like close to acting it out and

1212
00:49:21,699 --> 00:49:18,559
brought in in this sense of wanting to

1213
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:21,709
escape the trance of the world and it

1214
00:49:27,729 --> 00:49:24,890
sort of reshaped that in my mind so I

1215
00:49:30,249 --> 00:49:27,739
saw the potential for it to reshape that

1216
00:49:32,559 --> 00:49:30,259
for the people then it's not without its

1217
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:32,569
problems and and and and let me just

1218
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:34,130
interject a couple parts that I found

1219
00:49:39,039 --> 00:49:35,839
particularly meaningful because first

1220
00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:39,049
this idea of contemplating suicide at

1221
00:49:44,199 --> 00:49:42,529
one point or another is probably I don't

1222
00:49:46,299 --> 00:49:44,209
know what the stats are I'm sure it's in

1223
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:46,309
the majority of the population we just

1224
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:48,170
don't talk about it we just don't talk

1225
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:51,650
about that darkness that it comes in the

1226
00:49:55,180 --> 00:49:53,569
middle of the night for everyone no

1227
00:49:57,009 --> 00:49:55,190
matter who you are and unless you're

1228
00:49:58,599 --> 00:49:57,019
kind of totally stuffing it down and

1229
00:50:00,670 --> 00:49:58,609
then it comes up in other places when

1230
00:50:03,509 --> 00:50:00,680
you're down there eating ice cream at

1231
00:50:06,009 --> 00:50:03,519
two o'clock think about it you know but

1232
00:50:10,209 --> 00:50:06,019
what I found interesting about her story

1233
00:50:12,249 --> 00:50:10,219
is and again it's like you back to I

1234
00:50:15,099 --> 00:50:12,259
loved your thing about the movie because

1235
00:50:18,249 --> 00:50:15,109
here's some reality that we have to pack

1236
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:18,259
back in so part of the reality is she's

1237
00:50:25,390 --> 00:50:20,930
faced with contemplating suicide and

1238
00:50:28,569 --> 00:50:25,400
she's shown instructed told by this

1239
00:50:30,759 --> 00:50:28,579
higher being that you should not do this

1240
00:50:33,789 --> 00:50:30,769
because look what it will do to your

1241
00:50:37,089 --> 00:50:33,799
children it will do this it will do this

1242
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:37,099
it will you will lose out this now it

1243
00:50:42,489 --> 00:50:39,650
says so much about one it says this

1244
00:50:44,019 --> 00:50:42,499
about there are lessons that we have to

1245
00:50:44,980 --> 00:50:44,029
learn and whether we learn them on this

1246
00:50:46,930 --> 00:50:44,990
level or

1247
00:50:49,450 --> 00:50:46,940
we learn them through help from these

1248
00:50:51,820 --> 00:50:49,460
spirits whatever that means that that's

1249
00:50:54,609 --> 00:50:51,830
somehow part of it it also raises this

1250
00:50:56,950 --> 00:50:54,619
question of can we change this timeline

1251
00:50:58,300 --> 00:50:56,960
that we're on it's long been a question

1252
00:50:59,830 --> 00:50:58,310
mind that I don't think is fully

1253
00:51:02,980 --> 00:50:59,840
answered in the near-death experience

1254
00:51:05,500 --> 00:51:02,990
where you hear people say this is your

1255
00:51:07,359 --> 00:51:05,510
time this is not your time or you hear

1256
00:51:09,609 --> 00:51:07,369
people say hey this is your time and

1257
00:51:10,990 --> 00:51:09,619
they go no no no this is not my time and

1258
00:51:13,210 --> 00:51:11,000
then they're allowed to go back there's

1259
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:13,220
a million questions that aren't

1260
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:15,170
completely that aren't completely

1261
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:17,450
answered by your interview with Angie

1262
00:51:24,370 --> 00:51:21,010
but are at least teed up yeah sure and I

1263
00:51:26,410 --> 00:51:24,380
think with the suicide thing you know if

1264
00:51:29,380 --> 00:51:26,420
there is this absolute stigma around

1265
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:29,390
acknowledging any ideation whatsoever

1266
00:51:33,970 --> 00:51:30,650
and it's not something they don't want

1267
00:51:35,380 --> 00:51:33,980
to do and when I've talked to people

1268
00:51:37,060 --> 00:51:35,390
about this more and more people will

1269
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:37,070
acknowledge that they have the thought

1270
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:38,480
right and that they can be a million

1271
00:51:43,830 --> 00:51:41,210
miles away from doing it but I think

1272
00:51:44,980 --> 00:51:43,840
it's it's to our detriment that we

1273
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:44,990
pathologized

1274
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:46,640
thinking about it with any kind of

1275
00:51:51,010 --> 00:51:49,130
relationship you have the if it's

1276
00:51:52,660 --> 00:51:51,020
healthy there's the possibility to end

1277
00:51:55,090 --> 00:51:52,670
it with it's a job a part of anything

1278
00:51:59,170 --> 00:51:55,100
and in a sense have a relationship with

1279
00:52:01,359 --> 00:51:59,180
life okay and I think the the impulse to

1280
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:01,369
say I have enough of this right I want

1281
00:52:05,620 --> 00:52:03,680
out well I'm not saying that's the way

1282
00:52:07,150 --> 00:52:05,630
to go but it's going to tell you a lot

1283
00:52:09,910 --> 00:52:07,160
about yourself if rather than being

1284
00:52:11,890 --> 00:52:09,920
afraid of that sense of I want out you

1285
00:52:14,410 --> 00:52:11,900
think okay why is that what is it that I

1286
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:14,420
can't cope with in this moment so we

1287
00:52:18,010 --> 00:52:16,400
demonized the impulse to our detriment I

1288
00:52:20,950 --> 00:52:18,020
think and I wanted to engage Vangie and

1289
00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:20,960
on that level I was also interested to

1290
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:22,880
ask her she wrote this book back in the

1291
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:25,850
nineties okay and there's been so much

1292
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:27,650
done since then on the a deaf experience

1293
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:30,530
so how clear interpretation has maybe

1294
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:33,170
changed since then okay so for example

1295
00:52:36,430 --> 00:52:34,730
Hannah needs the question I'm trying to

1296
00:52:38,349 --> 00:52:36,440
bury Christian experience okay but since

1297
00:52:39,730 --> 00:52:38,359
then she's read a lot about this

1298
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:39,740
experience she's ready even Alexandra

1299
00:52:45,460 --> 00:52:42,770
and when all sorts and and she so I

1300
00:52:47,830 --> 00:52:45,470
asked her do you feel that you met Jesus

1301
00:52:49,690 --> 00:52:47,840
because he's the correct one he's the

1302
00:52:51,910 --> 00:52:49,700
one true God or because he's a symbol of

1303
00:52:54,190 --> 00:52:51,920
some people infinite consciousness and

1304
00:52:56,830 --> 00:52:54,200
she doesn't have an answer to that as

1305
00:52:58,660 --> 00:52:56,840
you know we don't put she says it's it's

1306
00:53:02,490 --> 00:52:58,670
come through more to her since

1307
00:53:04,450 --> 00:53:02,500
that you know maybe it's this deep

1308
00:53:05,890 --> 00:53:04,460
infinite mind law thing that's

1309
00:53:07,930 --> 00:53:05,900
expressing yourself in the right way we

1310
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:07,940
can't be definite balance so our on the

1311
00:53:12,370 --> 00:53:10,850
details of it but that's and yeah and

1312
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:12,380
there's something again I don't for me

1313
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:13,850
also doesn't answer all all the things

1314
00:53:17,650 --> 00:53:15,770
like Angie's experience is it has his

1315
00:53:19,780 --> 00:53:17,660
very dualistic quality too unlike shoes

1316
00:53:21,250 --> 00:53:19,790
in the darkness and God was light and he

1317
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:21,260
came to the edge of the darkness because

1318
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:22,490
he couldn't go into the light and he

1319
00:53:26,140 --> 00:53:24,770
told her it she made a mistake in doing

1320
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:26,150
this he brought her back to life so that

1321
00:53:31,090 --> 00:53:28,570
there's a dualism that's maintained

1322
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:31,100
between that right like suicide is a bad

1323
00:53:35,050 --> 00:53:33,650
thing and you keep it away and I think

1324
00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:35,060
there's different ways of seeing it

1325
00:53:39,550 --> 00:53:37,310
there too in terms as I mentioned this

1326
00:53:41,830 --> 00:53:39,560
idea of integration of like what is the

1327
00:53:44,770 --> 00:53:41,840
what is the impulse a desire to end it

1328
00:53:46,180 --> 00:53:44,780
and have to tell me so that those are

1329
00:53:48,850 --> 00:53:46,190
things that came out alternate I wanted

1330
00:53:51,060 --> 00:53:48,860
to create something that will be

1331
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:51,070
valuable to people as a resource in

1332
00:53:55,180 --> 00:53:52,970
maybe students those kind of feelings

1333
00:53:58,450 --> 00:53:55,190
and and this is the counterintuitive

1334
00:54:03,610 --> 00:53:58,460
part and helpfully people who might have

1335
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:03,620
had a loved one go through suicide okay

1336
00:54:07,630 --> 00:54:05,210
because that's I say counterintuitive

1337
00:54:11,020 --> 00:54:07,640
because there's this this dark place

1338
00:54:13,270 --> 00:54:11,030
that they Angie talks about going to is

1339
00:54:15,100 --> 00:54:13,280
not necessarily what people want here

1340
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:15,110
but I don't think people want 40 stories

1341
00:54:19,450 --> 00:54:16,850
about light and love in that sense and

1342
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:19,460
what Angie came back with was the sense

1343
00:54:23,590 --> 00:54:22,250
of that she certainly didn't feel that

1344
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:23,600
it was only her that got saved and

1345
00:54:27,220 --> 00:54:25,970
everyone else is screwed right there was

1346
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:27,230
a sense of being able to connect from

1347
00:54:30,910 --> 00:54:28,970
lore through fourth forms through prayer

1348
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:30,920
as previous guests some skeptical of

1349
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:33,770
talked about and with with people on the

1350
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:35,330
other side who maybe there is a

1351
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:37,130
continuation of suffering and struggle

1352
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:38,810
okay maybe not for everyone for some

1353
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:41,450
people maybe that's the case but what we

1354
00:54:44,770 --> 00:54:43,010
what Angie doesn't leave us with is this

1355
00:54:48,070 --> 00:54:44,780
sense of that's an infinite divide then

1356
00:54:49,300 --> 00:54:48,080
this kind of religious and we get it

1357
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:49,310
from Christianity a loss that

1358
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:50,930
when you're lost you're lost forever

1359
00:54:56,650 --> 00:54:54,290
great so there's two more that I want to

1360
00:55:00,280 --> 00:54:56,660
make sure we get to I'll let you pick

1361
00:55:01,990 --> 00:55:00,290
the order but cultish and the et and I

1362
00:55:03,370 --> 00:55:02,000
know you're begging off the et but we

1363
00:55:05,380 --> 00:55:03,380
have to go there a little bit which one

1364
00:55:08,620 --> 00:55:05,390
would you like to go to do et at the end

1365
00:55:17,210 --> 00:55:13,820
so another really interesting interview

1366
00:55:19,339 --> 00:55:17,220
that you do is holy hell

1367
00:55:20,990 --> 00:55:19,349
tell folks a little bit about this and

1368
00:55:25,550 --> 00:55:21,000
then I'm going to talk more broadly

1369
00:55:28,609 --> 00:55:25,560
about what's going on with cults and how

1370
00:55:30,050 --> 00:55:28,619
it tips into a lot of the stuff that

1371
00:55:33,500 --> 00:55:30,060
we're talking about in a really

1372
00:55:38,109 --> 00:55:33,510
interesting way so please jump in at any

1373
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:38,119
at any part you want so holy hell is a

1374
00:55:44,030 --> 00:55:41,280
documentary if you have Netflix you can

1375
00:55:46,910 --> 00:55:44,040
see it and it's a called documentary

1376
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:46,920
okay and I sat down and watched it one

1377
00:55:50,839 --> 00:55:49,680
evening and for the first twenty or

1378
00:55:52,099 --> 00:55:50,849
thirty minutes you might think ah you

1379
00:55:54,410 --> 00:55:52,109
know this doesn't look too bad I don't

1380
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:54,420
know what the what's gonna be the dark

1381
00:55:57,980 --> 00:55:55,770
side here it all looks like having a

1382
00:56:01,250 --> 00:55:57,990
lovely time and then it just goes off a

1383
00:56:03,079 --> 00:56:01,260
cliff and descends into insanity in

1384
00:56:07,570 --> 00:56:03,089
people's lives being ruined people being

1385
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:07,580
sexually abused by their their guru just

1386
00:56:13,490 --> 00:56:10,410
awful traumatic experience for the

1387
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:13,500
people involved and I interviewed Chris

1388
00:56:17,210 --> 00:56:16,170
Johnson one of the participants in the

1389
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:17,220
interview I was just thinking about this

1390
00:56:20,420 --> 00:56:18,240
is the day actually is probably one of

1391
00:56:22,430 --> 00:56:20,430
the most interesting hours of my life

1392
00:56:27,109 --> 00:56:22,440
was was speaking to Chris and getting

1393
00:56:29,589 --> 00:56:27,119
his insights about how he is a young man

1394
00:56:31,849 --> 00:56:29,599
who was not lacking in streetwise and

1395
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:31,859
had been approached by religious groups

1396
00:56:38,540 --> 00:56:34,170
on streets if I think I'm gonna be in LA

1397
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:38,550
and the Moonies or whatever had laughed

1398
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:39,810
and said all this is because it's the

1399
00:56:45,260 --> 00:56:41,250
course we knew what a cult was but then

1400
00:56:48,589 --> 00:56:45,270
still got involved in in a cult and end

1401
00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:48,599
up doing 20 years for 20 yeah about that

1402
00:56:56,450 --> 00:56:54,480
yeah yeah and the the guru thick arrived

1403
00:57:01,930 --> 00:56:56,460
he went by various names and I've

1404
00:57:05,470 --> 00:57:01,940
forgotten all of them and on a spot and

1405
00:57:09,079 --> 00:57:05,480
yes getting his insights on that how he

1406
00:57:11,210 --> 00:57:09,089
questions I was left with were was he

1407
00:57:12,859 --> 00:57:11,220
genuinely interested in in spirituality

1408
00:57:15,079 --> 00:57:12,869
and it kind of got to be he egotistical

1409
00:57:17,599 --> 00:57:15,089
or was it just a scam for him and these

1410
00:57:19,460 --> 00:57:17,609
kind of things and did Chris feel like

1411
00:57:20,180 --> 00:57:19,470
there were psychological factors in him

1412
00:57:22,490 --> 00:57:20,190
that drew

1413
00:57:23,630 --> 00:57:22,500
to that or was it just you know anyone

1414
00:57:27,109 --> 00:57:23,640
could have fallen for there's the con

1415
00:57:29,420 --> 00:57:27,119
job and and so on see yeah Alex go just

1416
00:57:32,059 --> 00:57:29,430
where do you want to go with that kind

1417
00:57:35,500 --> 00:57:32,069
of that whole thing there well you know

1418
00:57:38,599 --> 00:57:35,510
because you have this interest in

1419
00:57:41,150 --> 00:57:38,609
spirituality and in exploring these deep

1420
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:41,160
states one of the questions I wanted to

1421
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:44,130
ask you in particular is when you're

1422
00:57:50,180 --> 00:57:46,770
watching this movie this excellent brave

1423
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:50,190
brave documentary for it for not only

1424
00:57:56,569 --> 00:57:53,730
Chris to kind of come out and say this

1425
00:57:59,859 --> 00:57:56,579
guy you know coerce me into having sex

1426
00:58:02,480 --> 00:57:59,869
but then and I think Chris is gay right

1427
00:58:04,309 --> 00:58:02,490
I'm not really sure to be honest why how

1428
00:58:06,740 --> 00:58:04,319
we would define that because the reason

1429
00:58:10,370 --> 00:58:06,750
I bring that up is you know even more

1430
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:10,380
sadly in in a very confusing way there's

1431
00:58:17,809 --> 00:58:13,890
other young men who are heterosexual who

1432
00:58:20,089 --> 00:58:17,819
are coerced or you know whatever you

1433
00:58:23,150 --> 00:58:20,099
want to say into having sexual relations

1434
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:23,160
with this guru who's just has this power

1435
00:58:29,150 --> 00:58:25,650
over them is doing therapy with them is

1436
00:58:31,039 --> 00:58:29,160
doing hypnosis with them and they wind

1437
00:58:34,339 --> 00:58:31,049
up having these you know sexual

1438
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:34,349
encounters with them and again I hate to

1439
00:58:37,460 --> 00:58:36,089
have to say there's nothing wrong with

1440
00:58:39,380 --> 00:58:37,470
being gay of course there's nothing

1441
00:58:41,450 --> 00:58:39,390
wrong with being gay but you the trauma

1442
00:58:43,940 --> 00:58:41,460
and these people's lives say that's not

1443
00:58:46,490 --> 00:58:43,950
my sexual orientation and I look back at

1444
00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:46,500
that with this incredible shame because

1445
00:58:50,210 --> 00:58:48,480
you know how did I wind up in that

1446
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:50,220
situation so there's these people who

1447
00:58:53,690 --> 00:58:51,599
come in the film that are incredibly

1448
00:58:58,309 --> 00:58:53,700
brave and they reveal this story which

1449
00:59:02,059 --> 00:58:58,319
as you say is not typical but then is

1450
00:59:03,950 --> 00:59:02,069
typical of what we see in cult but I

1451
00:59:08,029 --> 00:59:03,960
digress Richard and that's why this show

1452
00:59:10,700 --> 00:59:08,039
goes up a lot of questions the part I

1453
00:59:12,980 --> 00:59:10,710
found particularly interesting is the

1454
00:59:15,740 --> 00:59:12,990
Samadhi experiences that these people

1455
00:59:18,519 --> 00:59:15,750
have so when you talked about your

1456
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:18,529
experience with the whiskey and the all

1457
00:59:25,990 --> 00:59:23,490
feeling of love there are certain people

1458
00:59:29,569 --> 00:59:26,000
on this planet that seemed to be able to

1459
00:59:32,829 --> 00:59:29,579
transmit that experience to other people

1460
00:59:36,079 --> 00:59:32,839
through a touch through a gaze through

1461
00:59:37,490 --> 00:59:36,089
any various number of waves and these

1462
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:37,500
people have been reported through

1463
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:40,170
history and they a lot of times sit up

1464
00:59:44,359 --> 00:59:42,510
on a cushion up on the stage and people

1465
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:44,369
throw flowers and money at them because

1466
00:59:51,319 --> 00:59:48,240
we have such unbelievable respect but

1467
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:51,329
more to the point the participants have

1468
00:59:56,029 --> 00:59:53,490
this if you have that incredible feeling

1469
00:59:57,890 --> 00:59:56,039
the most profound feeling of your life

1470
01:00:01,339 --> 00:59:57,900
like you talked about that next morning

1471
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:01,349
after drinking the whiskey man it's hard

1472
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:03,930
not to be attached to that and it's hard

1473
01:00:09,529 --> 01:00:07,440
not to attach yourself to the person who

1474
01:00:12,829 --> 01:00:09,539
you think transmitted that experience so

1475
01:00:16,099 --> 01:00:12,839
there's so much to pull apart there what

1476
01:00:18,650 --> 01:00:16,109
do we think is going on when someone

1477
01:00:23,299 --> 01:00:18,660
like this who is not a good person by

1478
01:00:28,819 --> 01:00:23,309
any measure seems to be able to affect

1479
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:28,829
this inside of people yes I don't have a

1480
01:00:34,130 --> 01:00:31,130
final answer on this one but it's

1481
01:00:36,410 --> 01:00:34,140
something I've explored and journeyed on

1482
01:00:37,999 --> 01:00:36,420
myself so I think for one there's

1483
01:00:39,950 --> 01:00:38,009
definitely a sense in watching the film

1484
01:00:41,779 --> 01:00:39,960
of what for the grace of God there do I

1485
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:41,789
there was a period in my life where I

1486
01:00:47,089 --> 01:00:44,609
can see definitely I could have taken

1487
01:00:49,579 --> 01:00:47,099
that course if I'd met the wrong people

1488
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:49,589
at the right time yes I could have

1489
01:00:54,470 --> 01:00:52,170
fallen into that you know and at the

1490
01:00:56,630 --> 01:00:54,480
same time I do feel that getting

1491
01:00:58,789 --> 01:00:56,640
involved in spirituality in the early

1492
01:01:00,950 --> 01:00:58,799
noughties the first time I ever heard a

1493
01:01:03,559 --> 01:01:00,960
Sai Baba was when I heard about the

1494
01:01:06,349 --> 01:01:03,569
accusations of PDA philia right so the

1495
01:01:08,329 --> 01:01:06,359
the Vanille was falling off the gurus

1496
01:01:11,029 --> 01:01:08,339
though the glass was falling away so

1497
01:01:12,559 --> 01:01:11,039
then okay we start we start out with

1498
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:12,569
this idea that there are some people who

1499
01:01:17,029 --> 01:01:14,160
go into consciousness in such a profound

1500
01:01:18,740 --> 01:01:17,039
way that they can wave their hand above

1501
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:18,750
your head and that will induce this

1502
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:20,130
immense experience of you because they

1503
01:01:23,930 --> 01:01:22,170
are so enlightened purim selves okay

1504
01:01:26,539 --> 01:01:23,940
that's that's the sign in place of this

1505
01:01:27,650 --> 01:01:26,549
and then then the accusation surface

1506
01:01:29,630 --> 01:01:27,660
that these people are not holier than

1507
01:01:32,749 --> 01:01:29,640
thou they're doing stuff that's in some

1508
01:01:35,150 --> 01:01:32,759
cases not only dark but so dark it would

1509
01:01:37,309 --> 01:01:35,160
make them amongst the most evil 1% of

1510
01:01:39,620 --> 01:01:37,319
people in the population so then we have

1511
01:01:40,999 --> 01:01:39,630
to move that say okay well well people

1512
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:41,009
can be enlightened on a very deep level

1513
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:44,250
of consciousness and touch the infinite

1514
01:01:47,180 --> 01:01:45,570
and transmit that

1515
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:47,190
in the middle it doesn't necessarily

1516
01:01:50,030 --> 01:01:48,690
purify their psyche and they can have

1517
01:01:52,370 --> 01:01:50,040
all these demons again so this power

1518
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:52,380
comes through but you shouldn't

1519
01:01:58,850 --> 01:01:56,370
necessarily trust them and that's that's

1520
01:02:00,560 --> 01:01:58,860
a model and Tim Freak moved towards him

1521
01:02:03,500 --> 01:02:00,570
that sort of pickings up from there I

1522
01:02:04,940 --> 01:02:03,510
mention his name because and he came to

1523
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:04,950
this great analogy of life look it's

1524
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:07,050
like a rock star okay like you might

1525
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:08,850
know one expects rock stars to be good

1526
01:02:12,020 --> 01:02:11,010
people in fact you know if they will

1527
01:02:13,610 --> 01:02:12,030
look at people that will probably would

1528
01:02:14,930 --> 01:02:13,620
have left out if they went backstage and

1529
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:14,940
they were just drinking the herbal tea

1530
01:02:18,170 --> 01:02:16,770
and they were like sorta cocaine or

1531
01:02:20,420 --> 01:02:18,180
something you'd be a bit disappointed so

1532
01:02:22,340 --> 01:02:20,430
but they have a genius there's a genius

1533
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:22,350
and for music and artists tormented

1534
01:02:26,090 --> 01:02:24,210
people and actually we should move gurus

1535
01:02:27,740 --> 01:02:26,100
out of the spiritually pure category and

1536
01:02:31,670 --> 01:02:27,750
put them in the tormented genius

1537
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:31,680
category I love that and I think it also

1538
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:35,570
speaks to your earlier point about

1539
01:02:40,070 --> 01:02:37,890
understanding the movie is the movie I

1540
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:40,080
mean I have a friend who is a devotee of

1541
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:42,570
Sully appreciate the EM recently

1542
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:44,850
deceased Buddhist and you know he really

1543
01:02:50,180 --> 01:02:46,650
struggles cuz he knows full well he's a

1544
01:02:51,500 --> 01:02:50,190
nasty abusive guy who you know had sex

1545
01:02:54,170 --> 01:02:51,510
of all these young female

1546
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:54,180
devotees but he struggles with he can't

1547
01:02:57,860 --> 01:02:56,250
ignore that the most profoundly shifting

1548
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:57,870
moments of his life came in the presence

1549
01:03:01,760 --> 01:02:59,520
of this man or in his group and he's had

1550
01:03:03,290 --> 01:03:01,770
to you know wrestle of that and it's

1551
01:03:05,630 --> 01:03:03,300
different it gets right into our

1552
01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:05,640
attachment patterns and disorders and

1553
01:03:08,990 --> 01:03:06,960
probably how we were parented and what

1554
01:03:10,730 --> 01:03:09,000
we're unconsciously searching for in

1555
01:03:13,670 --> 01:03:10,740
that level so I understand like people

1556
01:03:15,620 --> 01:03:13,680
get a real lock into that and whilst I

1557
01:03:20,060 --> 01:03:15,630
agree it's part of the movie and the the

1558
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:20,070
process then is to recognize why we're

1559
01:03:24,850 --> 01:03:22,170
being drawn to this for the person what

1560
01:03:28,130 --> 01:03:24,860
they give us in the way we are and to

1561
01:03:30,530 --> 01:03:28,140
come into our own sense of oneness and I

1562
01:03:32,380 --> 01:03:30,540
sympathize with that being a difficult

1563
01:03:37,460 --> 01:03:32,390
journey and one that can take time

1564
01:03:40,630 --> 01:03:37,470
totally agree okay Richard why don't you

1565
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:40,640
take a tease right on your shoulder man

1566
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:44,370
you are a teen isn't that what we found

1567
01:03:53,390 --> 01:03:48,570
out at the end of the day isn't that the

1568
01:03:55,730 --> 01:03:53,400
real reality here that we are et is it I

1569
01:03:58,550 --> 01:03:55,740
am I blame skeptical for this I was just

1570
01:03:59,300 --> 01:03:58,560
trying to do some basic meter metate own

1571
01:04:01,130 --> 01:03:59,310
near-death

1572
01:04:04,070 --> 01:04:01,140
research and then I stumbled across an

1573
01:04:05,660 --> 01:04:04,080
area rod wells interview that you can

1574
01:04:07,250 --> 01:04:05,670
talk to it and that that was stands the

1575
01:04:10,250 --> 01:04:07,260
rabbit hole I never wanted to fall down

1576
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:10,260
but then I was down it and well Simon's

1577
01:04:14,870 --> 01:04:13,130
fall yeah that was another again

1578
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:14,880
entirely by accident

1579
01:04:21,410 --> 01:04:19,170
Simon is a priest in the Church of

1580
01:04:25,730 --> 01:04:21,420
England which retired now a deeply

1581
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:25,740
mystical contemplative man and that

1582
01:04:30,230 --> 01:04:27,330
aspects the church and I really wanted

1583
01:04:32,540 --> 01:04:30,240
to interview him on that and he wrote a

1584
01:04:34,310 --> 01:04:32,550
sci-fi book big fan of sci-fi so he

1585
01:04:36,470 --> 01:04:34,320
wrote a book about a priest who meets

1586
01:04:39,770 --> 01:04:36,480
aliens and bringing those two words

1587
01:04:42,770 --> 01:04:39,780
together I didn't really know his his

1588
01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:42,780
interest in this whole area was was

1589
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:44,880
prompted by some personal experience of

1590
01:04:49,460 --> 01:04:47,760
contact okay so that came up in sci-fi

1591
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:49,470
interview and then of course you've got

1592
01:04:53,270 --> 01:04:50,730
to go there so we did an alien

1593
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:53,280
encounters and mainly encounters

1594
01:04:58,250 --> 01:04:56,610
interview so to me what I thought would

1595
01:05:00,970 --> 01:04:58,260
be kind of interesting to talk about and

1596
01:05:05,090 --> 01:05:00,980
just drag you into the deep water here

1597
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:05,100
is that it's like stepping stones across

1598
01:05:10,970 --> 01:05:07,920
the river and I guess my earlier rant

1599
01:05:13,490 --> 01:05:10,980
about I do want to jump I would want to

1600
01:05:15,740 --> 01:05:13,500
launch into kind of conclusions and

1601
01:05:19,250 --> 01:05:15,750
that's not maybe exactly what I meant

1602
01:05:25,430 --> 01:05:19,260
but what I do feel like I want to do is

1603
01:05:28,820 --> 01:05:25,440
I don't want to not recognize when the

1604
01:05:31,730 --> 01:05:28,830
burden of proof kind of thing shifts in

1605
01:05:34,340 --> 01:05:31,740
a dramatic way and that we have to

1606
01:05:36,710 --> 01:05:34,350
change our belief system in a way that

1607
01:05:39,470 --> 01:05:36,720
says well I now have to accept that

1608
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:39,480
until I'm proven otherwise

1609
01:05:46,130 --> 01:05:42,930
here are the stepping stones to me I was

1610
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:46,140
like bringing up the New York Times Fox

1611
01:05:54,410 --> 01:05:51,810
News CBS News December 2017 is it you

1612
01:05:57,380 --> 01:05:54,420
know I think so yeah you know I mean

1613
01:05:58,880 --> 01:05:57,390
it's outed so the DoD is now come out

1614
01:06:01,640 --> 01:05:58,890
and said our government the United

1615
01:06:04,550 --> 01:06:01,650
States I said yeah they're here they're

1616
01:06:08,870 --> 01:06:04,560
UFOs so the stepping stone for me is

1617
01:06:12,890 --> 01:06:08,880
number one you lied your ass off about

1618
01:06:15,410 --> 01:06:12,900
that for at least 60 70 years

1619
01:06:17,809 --> 01:06:15,420
you threaten people you threatened to

1620
01:06:20,390 --> 01:06:17,819
kill people kill their families kill

1621
01:06:23,690 --> 01:06:20,400
everyone if they revealed this UFO

1622
01:06:25,670 --> 01:06:23,700
secret and now you just kind of casually

1623
01:06:28,999 --> 01:06:25,680
kind of slip it out there and a little

1624
01:06:31,370 --> 01:06:29,009
uh you know oh it would never was really

1625
01:06:33,499 --> 01:06:31,380
classified information anyway here's the

1626
01:06:36,319 --> 01:06:33,509
video you can see for it yourself

1627
01:06:40,519 --> 01:06:36,329
what surprises me and that is that

1628
01:06:43,220 --> 01:06:40,529
people seem unexplainably reluctant to

1629
01:06:46,430 --> 01:06:43,230
take the next step if we see the UFO

1630
01:06:48,380 --> 01:06:46,440
video that the DoD now is throwing the

1631
01:06:52,700 --> 01:06:48,390
holy water on and say yep that's real

1632
01:06:54,829 --> 01:06:52,710
that's real then certainly et is real

1633
01:06:58,519 --> 01:06:54,839
there's someone piloting those crafts

1634
01:07:00,640 --> 01:06:58,529
and it's et and then how would we not

1635
01:07:02,380 --> 01:07:00,650
connect that to the ancient alien

1636
01:07:06,859 --> 01:07:02,390
hypothesis which i think is

1637
01:07:09,950 --> 01:07:06,869
overwhelmingly just self-evident when

1638
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:09,960
you go and you interview like I

1639
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:14,130
interviewed rt6 killer Clark who is a

1640
01:07:19,849 --> 01:07:17,730
Native American anthropologist at

1641
01:07:24,410 --> 01:07:19,859
Montana State he does interviews all

1642
01:07:25,999 --> 01:07:24,420
these indigenous people in North America

1643
01:07:28,220 --> 01:07:26,009
and Canada United States and South

1644
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:28,230
America and they say oh yes this is our

1645
01:07:33,229 --> 01:07:31,170
tradition the star people came and they

1646
01:07:35,420 --> 01:07:33,239
gave us all this and we are in fact the

1647
01:07:37,370 --> 01:07:35,430
star people and then you go over to

1648
01:07:40,370 --> 01:07:37,380
Africa and you talk to the Dogon they

1649
01:07:42,529 --> 01:07:40,380
say yes star people they came to this

1650
01:07:43,910 --> 01:07:42,539
and then you go and you look at Egypt

1651
01:07:45,650 --> 01:07:43,920
and you look at the lining of the

1652
01:07:47,620 --> 01:07:45,660
pyramids and of course they're with the

1653
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:47,630
stars and it's a star people I mean

1654
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:53,730
again if the pivot point is the DoD

1655
01:07:58,519 --> 01:07:55,650
release of the videos and saying yeah

1656
01:08:00,680 --> 01:07:58,529
this is real well then there does have

1657
01:08:03,950 --> 01:08:00,690
to be this kind of avalanche here of

1658
01:08:06,109 --> 01:08:03,960
accepting all these other things so the

1659
01:08:08,059 --> 01:08:06,119
merry rod will interview that you

1660
01:08:10,519 --> 01:08:08,069
mentioned that I did and we can just

1661
01:08:13,670 --> 01:08:10,529
oppose that to the interview you did you

1662
01:08:18,410 --> 01:08:13,680
just referenced that you did brings us

1663
01:08:21,649 --> 01:08:18,420
face to face with hybridization of us

1664
01:08:24,470 --> 01:08:21,659
the hybridization of ETS this genetic

1665
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:24,480
transformation from all these different

1666
01:08:29,630 --> 01:08:26,370
species that might be

1667
01:08:32,420 --> 01:08:29,640
out there in the universe to something

1668
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:32,430
that is us right now but is in the

1669
01:08:39,620 --> 01:08:35,370
process of constantly being tweaked and

1670
01:08:43,630 --> 01:08:39,630
changed that to me I'm not going to say

1671
01:08:48,170 --> 01:08:43,640
that certain I'm just saying that until

1672
01:08:52,550 --> 01:08:48,180
that can be thoroughly disproven that

1673
01:08:56,540 --> 01:08:52,560
has to become the most likely scenario

1674
01:08:58,880 --> 01:08:56,550
in my opinion and then the larger

1675
01:09:00,590 --> 01:08:58,890
question that I get to it all this back

1676
01:09:03,710 --> 01:09:00,600
to your hope this whole interview is

1677
01:09:05,780 --> 01:09:03,720
does that change anything about all

1678
01:09:08,570 --> 01:09:05,790
these conversations we were having about

1679
01:09:11,990 --> 01:09:08,580
deep spirituality does it change it at

1680
01:09:14,480 --> 01:09:12,000
all or is it just fit right into it

1681
01:09:17,090 --> 01:09:14,490
seamlessly so there's a ton on the table

1682
01:09:19,670 --> 01:09:17,100
there but go ahead yeah I could see it

1683
01:09:21,590 --> 01:09:19,680
not changing anything about deep

1684
01:09:25,690 --> 01:09:21,600
spirituality if you take this young

1685
01:09:27,950 --> 01:09:25,700
jewel idealist paradigm that the

1686
01:09:30,350 --> 01:09:27,960
feelings that big ocean of long from

1687
01:09:34,340 --> 01:09:30,360
presumably the UFOs or rising in that to

1688
01:09:35,630 --> 01:09:34,350
whatever they are so you know unless I

1689
01:09:37,100 --> 01:09:35,640
fundamentally misinterpreted my

1690
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:37,110
experience there which is of course

1691
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:39,810
always a possibility and I could see it

1692
01:09:45,650 --> 01:09:41,970
not changing that and this being another

1693
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:45,660
aspect of the world we inhabit and I

1694
01:09:49,820 --> 01:09:47,370
think can we explore that for a minute

1695
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:49,830
how does that work it sounds

1696
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:51,330
self-evident to me somewhat can you

1697
01:09:56,570 --> 01:09:53,730
elaborate on the question of it in one

1698
01:10:00,260 --> 01:09:56,580
way I get that it's self-evident in

1699
01:10:02,930 --> 01:10:00,270
another way how come Angie isn't all

1700
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:02,940
over that how come she isn't coming back

1701
01:10:08,510 --> 01:10:05,370
and that's the first thing she says the

1702
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:08,520
variety of the manifestation of that one

1703
01:10:13,870 --> 01:10:11,250
love consciousness is infinite there's

1704
01:10:16,460 --> 01:10:13,880
like millions and millions of different

1705
01:10:18,770 --> 01:10:16,470
manifestations of it she doesn't say

1706
01:10:20,750 --> 01:10:18,780
that yeah well no but I mean think of

1707
01:10:22,820 --> 01:10:20,760
the context here Angie is not going into

1708
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:22,830
this you know she's not taking tablets

1709
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:24,810
to shut her heart down because she wants

1710
01:10:27,980 --> 01:10:26,250
to have this deep conscious experience

1711
01:10:29,990 --> 01:10:27,990
because she's a psycho nautical explorer

1712
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:30,000
she's doing it in an active auto

1713
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:34,650
desperation so it feels like well what

1714
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:36,210
reaches out to her is the appropriate

1715
01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:38,730
image for this lady born into Christian

1716
01:10:43,430 --> 01:10:40,050
spirituality and has been this

1717
01:10:46,609 --> 01:10:43,440
she's clung to for her life for soulful

1718
01:10:48,020 --> 01:10:46,619
substance so it makes sense to be in

1719
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:48,030
that way and maybe you know whereas by

1720
01:10:53,629 --> 01:10:50,010
contrast someone in a Rick Strassman

1721
01:10:55,580 --> 01:10:53,639
group taking DMT so they can explore the

1722
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:55,590
depth and breadth for the universe might

1723
01:11:00,470 --> 01:10:57,210
have a different experience that that

1724
01:11:01,729 --> 01:11:00,480
speaks more to that so let's pause on

1725
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:01,739
that because like this is like really

1726
01:11:05,660 --> 01:11:03,090
the conversation that I wanted to have

1727
01:11:10,220 --> 01:11:05,670
so does that really wash though because

1728
01:11:11,660 --> 01:11:10,230
one of Angie's concerns is she's hearing

1729
01:11:14,180 --> 01:11:11,670
the voice of God and she wants to make

1730
01:11:15,830 --> 01:11:14,190
sure she gets it down just right which

1731
01:11:19,069 --> 01:11:15,840
always strikes me as a little bit

1732
01:11:20,629 --> 01:11:19,079
strange although I love what Angie has

1733
01:11:23,959 --> 01:11:20,639
to say and what she brings forward is

1734
01:11:25,970 --> 01:11:23,969
phenomenal she's a she's gifted in terms

1735
01:11:28,189 --> 01:11:25,980
of her knowledge and her understanding

1736
01:11:30,470 --> 01:11:28,199
of it but I wanted to make sure I got

1737
01:11:32,569 --> 01:11:30,480
the voice of God just right do you

1738
01:11:34,910 --> 01:11:32,579
really think you God yeah like if it's

1739
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:34,920
God talking to you then why are you just

1740
01:11:38,629 --> 01:11:37,050
getting that little sliver and then let

1741
01:11:41,299 --> 01:11:38,639
me jump over and I just interviewed

1742
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:41,309
Deborah diamond who I think is a really

1743
01:11:44,839 --> 01:11:43,530
great medium and she's talked to you

1744
01:11:46,729 --> 01:11:44,849
know thousands of thousands of spirits

1745
01:11:49,100 --> 01:11:46,739
and spirits all the time and I asked her

1746
01:11:51,799 --> 01:11:49,110
and she's like well no I'm not sure I'm

1747
01:11:52,549 --> 01:11:51,809
down with reincarnation I mean what do

1748
01:11:54,350 --> 01:11:52,559
you mean you're not down with

1749
01:11:56,030 --> 01:11:54,360
reincarnation I already proved it over

1750
01:11:57,620 --> 01:11:56,040
at the University of Virginia and then

1751
01:11:59,629 --> 01:11:57,630
if you want to talk about aliens it's

1752
01:12:02,540 --> 01:11:59,639
like a whole different cuts like whoa I

1753
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:02,550
don't know anything about that I mean it

1754
01:12:10,430 --> 01:12:06,090
doesn't it doesn't fit together in a way

1755
01:12:16,100 --> 01:12:10,440
that I would expect it to if the whole

1756
01:12:19,490 --> 01:12:16,110
et genetic we are et kind of story is

1757
01:12:24,919 --> 01:12:19,500
real I would expect to see that pop up

1758
01:12:27,020 --> 01:12:24,929
more um yeah I can only address the Andy

1759
01:12:29,030 --> 01:12:27,030
thing by being bit some theological and

1760
01:12:30,770 --> 01:12:29,040
making statements like God reaches out

1761
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:30,780
to us in the form we can accept right

1762
01:12:33,770 --> 01:12:32,130
and then that fundamentally makes sense

1763
01:12:35,510 --> 01:12:33,780
to me okay because if I'm having a

1764
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:35,520
conversation like this and then we're

1765
01:12:38,620 --> 01:12:37,290
exploring the nature of reality I'm not

1766
01:12:41,419 --> 01:12:38,630
Satya thinking what's the most

1767
01:12:43,939 --> 01:12:41,429
compassionate and kind way to speak to

1768
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:43,949
Alex that won't upset his applecart you

1769
01:12:47,209 --> 01:12:45,570
know but if I if I'm you know

1770
01:12:48,859 --> 01:12:47,219
interacting of someone who's maybe the

1771
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:48,869
big thing for them is their suffering

1772
01:12:52,510 --> 01:12:50,010
and struggling and they have a

1773
01:12:54,070 --> 01:12:52,520
particular religious view and

1774
01:12:56,020 --> 01:12:54,080
that that does come into play then and

1775
01:12:58,540 --> 01:12:56,030
I'm happy to fit into whatever language

1776
01:13:00,910 --> 01:12:58,550
bracket people feel comfortable if I can

1777
01:13:03,670 --> 01:13:00,920
you know be of some service in that way

1778
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:03,680
so it makes sense to me to you know

1779
01:13:08,590 --> 01:13:05,330
extrapolate that's the way I would act

1780
01:13:11,350 --> 01:13:08,600
then you know it makes sense that that

1781
01:13:13,750 --> 01:13:11,360
carries are not so that when whatever

1782
01:13:15,370 --> 01:13:13,760
deeper being interacts with Angie in her

1783
01:13:17,290 --> 01:13:15,380
moment of suffering it makes sense it

1784
01:13:21,010 --> 01:13:17,300
would reach her in that in that form

1785
01:13:22,750 --> 01:13:21,020
because compassion from sex duration in

1786
01:13:26,650 --> 01:13:22,760
that moment God is working on a

1787
01:13:28,510 --> 01:13:26,660
need-to-know basis yeah I think I can't

1788
01:13:31,690 --> 01:13:28,520
say it makes sense we it's also not lost

1789
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:31,700
on me Alex that okay I when I was 23 24

1790
01:13:36,100 --> 01:13:34,610
I was really into new advisor I looked

1791
01:13:39,190 --> 01:13:36,110
at the world that way or invited adapter

1792
01:13:41,500 --> 01:13:39,200
and what do you know my experience was a

1793
01:13:43,030 --> 01:13:41,510
very non jewel classical divided on to

1794
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:43,040
experience I wanna coincidence I guess

1795
01:13:47,530 --> 01:13:44,810
that's the right one then okay or maybe

1796
01:13:49,690 --> 01:13:47,540
there's something very pure very non

1797
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:49,700
mythological about the way I experienced

1798
01:13:55,300 --> 01:13:51,050
it okay I didn't meet Jesus or something

1799
01:13:57,760 --> 01:13:55,310
and but also maybe that's just you know

1800
01:13:59,470 --> 01:13:57,770
I'm seeing the part or feeling the part

1801
01:14:01,470 --> 01:13:59,480
of the elephant that I can feel in that

1802
01:14:03,790 --> 01:14:01,480
and I might have my own cognitive

1803
01:14:05,830 --> 01:14:03,800
restrictions because of the lens I've

1804
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:05,840
I've picked up you know I don't doubt

1805
01:14:10,210 --> 01:14:08,570
that if I'd been very much to miss soul

1806
01:14:12,370 --> 01:14:10,220
searching for a more Christian lens I

1807
01:14:15,250 --> 01:14:12,380
would be speaking a different language

1808
01:14:17,050 --> 01:14:15,260
in in reporting it maybe not you know

1809
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:17,060
maybe the same experience or maybe spear

1810
01:14:21,220 --> 01:14:17,690
to be a little different

1811
01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:21,230
I don't but related question as we start

1812
01:14:26,980 --> 01:14:25,490
to wrap this up are we looking at two

1813
01:14:29,290 --> 01:14:26,990
ladders that are leaning up against

1814
01:14:31,060 --> 01:14:29,300
different walls one ladder being the

1815
01:14:33,700 --> 01:14:31,070
spiritual ladder that you're talking

1816
01:14:36,250 --> 01:14:33,710
about and were trying to ascend

1817
01:14:38,020 --> 01:14:36,260
hopefully that ladder and then we have

1818
01:14:39,430 --> 01:14:38,030
these different experiences and all we

1819
01:14:41,350 --> 01:14:39,440
could call them non-dual that we could

1820
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:41,360
call them christian we'd call them

1821
01:14:45,730 --> 01:14:43,610
mystical or Gnostic or all these are

1822
01:14:47,590 --> 01:14:45,740
things and we get under we understand

1823
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:47,600
all the complexity and challenges of

1824
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:49,970
that all the rest of that and then

1825
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:51,290
there's this other ladder that we're

1826
01:14:57,040 --> 01:14:54,770
exploring which is you know what's going

1827
01:14:59,290 --> 01:14:57,050
on and how does science relate to that

1828
01:15:02,530 --> 01:14:59,300
and we are a genetic experiment and we

1829
01:15:04,270 --> 01:15:02,540
are being manipulated but our

1830
01:15:06,220 --> 01:15:04,280
consciousness is manifesting and they're

1831
01:15:06,710 --> 01:15:06,230
still in that ladder they're still

1832
01:15:12,260 --> 01:15:06,720
talking about

1833
01:15:14,630 --> 01:15:12,270
the purple Jaguar and all the rest of

1834
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:14,640
that but when you really get up to the

1835
01:15:18,620 --> 01:15:16,290
top of these ladders you find they're on

1836
01:15:22,370 --> 01:15:18,630
two completely different walls and the

1837
01:15:25,010 --> 01:15:22,380
one ball is looking deeply at this time

1838
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:25,020
space reality and it's just trying to

1839
01:15:29,030 --> 01:15:27,090
figure that out and not putting judgment

1840
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:29,040
on that but just saying here are all the

1841
01:15:33,590 --> 01:15:31,290
things that we can experience in this

1842
01:15:36,140 --> 01:15:33,600
time-space reality and hey there's these

1843
01:15:38,630 --> 01:15:36,150
other beings that are seem to be popping

1844
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:38,640
into it and experiencing it with us

1845
01:15:43,490 --> 01:15:41,130
and then this hypothesis then if I would

1846
01:15:47,390 --> 01:15:43,500
have ground it out would say this other

1847
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:47,400
wall as you're ascending it at the top

1848
01:15:52,910 --> 01:15:50,970
of it it becomes more and more separated

1849
01:15:55,130 --> 01:15:52,920
from the other wall because the other

1850
01:15:59,180 --> 01:15:55,140
wall doesn't really it's just like a

1851
01:16:02,330 --> 01:15:59,190
game it's just kind of in experience but

1852
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:02,340
at the end of the day this other true

1853
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:06,810
spiritual ascension is what it's all

1854
01:16:10,340 --> 01:16:07,170
about

1855
01:16:12,290 --> 01:16:10,350
does that make any sense or does it no I

1856
01:16:13,610 --> 01:16:12,300
think so and then I think you could say

1857
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:13,620
okay it depends on your perspective on

1858
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:15,690
things like the other phenomena so for

1859
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:18,690
example if like David Jacobs is got the

1860
01:16:22,850 --> 01:16:20,250
correct answer then the ladders are

1861
01:16:24,140 --> 01:16:22,860
quite separate and the UFOs the aliens

1862
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:24,150
aren't here for any spiritual reason

1863
01:16:27,910 --> 01:16:25,410
they've just seen resources and they

1864
01:16:30,260 --> 01:16:27,920
want to take them and on the other hand

1865
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:30,270
you know obviously like a Mary Rodwell

1866
01:16:36,110 --> 01:16:31,850
perspective would have that the two

1867
01:16:38,390 --> 01:16:36,120
ladders very conjoined I can't make

1868
01:16:39,830 --> 01:16:38,400
sense off the questions you asked

1869
01:16:41,630 --> 01:16:39,840
everything look like exactly there are

1870
01:16:42,770 --> 01:16:41,640
any questions to be asking regarding

1871
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:42,780
like why does this person say

1872
01:16:47,510 --> 01:16:44,730
reincarnation and this person says you

1873
01:16:49,010 --> 01:16:47,520
know only three times and why does some

1874
01:16:50,270 --> 01:16:49,020
people say spirits won't close contact

1875
01:16:52,250 --> 01:16:50,280
with their families when they're gone

1876
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:52,260
and you can do therapy around that and

1877
01:16:57,770 --> 01:16:53,370
others say no leave them alone they're

1878
01:17:02,380 --> 01:16:57,780
busy of their own thing and I I suspect

1879
01:17:04,940 --> 01:17:02,390
that it might be that our way of

1880
01:17:08,740 --> 01:17:04,950
understanding the world our rules of

1881
01:17:10,940 --> 01:17:08,750
logic and such are more limited and

1882
01:17:14,450 --> 01:17:10,950
we're dealing with something that's just

1883
01:17:15,820 --> 01:17:14,460
on another level and we can no more you

1884
01:17:19,669 --> 01:17:15,830
know what we're like if the ancient

1885
01:17:22,669 --> 01:17:19,679
Greeks try to understand

1886
01:17:23,899 --> 01:17:22,679
or found the facts we know about the

1887
01:17:25,669 --> 01:17:23,909
world about having the reasons they

1888
01:17:27,259 --> 01:17:25,679
wouldn't be able to understand quantum

1889
01:17:28,459 --> 01:17:27,269
mechanics or something it's just they're

1890
01:17:30,649 --> 01:17:28,469
now in a position where they can even

1891
01:17:31,819 --> 01:17:30,659
approach that and I suspect we're not in

1892
01:17:33,919 --> 01:17:31,829
a position where probe didn't move

1893
01:17:36,009 --> 01:17:33,929
didn't try and I appreciate that's all

1894
01:17:38,660 --> 01:17:36,019
from the cop-out answer but that's also

1895
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:38,670
just because of the variety of the way

1896
01:17:41,689 --> 01:17:40,050
the phenomena is come through and how

1897
01:17:43,609 --> 01:17:41,699
other all these apparent contradictions

1898
01:17:45,169 --> 01:17:43,619
it makes me think that we would need to

1899
01:17:49,060 --> 01:17:45,179
look at this on a deeper level in some

1900
01:17:52,850 --> 01:17:49,070
way that we might have limited access to

1901
01:17:55,399 --> 01:17:52,860
hey it's either a cop-out or it's the

1902
01:17:57,379 --> 01:17:55,409
most deep profound answer it is the

1903
01:17:59,899 --> 01:17:57,389
world what world answer it is the AMA

1904
01:18:02,720 --> 01:17:59,909
answer right it's like hey I'm playing

1905
01:18:04,819 --> 01:18:02,730
the game as hard as I can but I still

1906
01:18:07,459 --> 01:18:04,829
see it as a movie I don't I don't forget

1907
01:18:09,259 --> 01:18:07,469
that so I think that's just awesome I

1908
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:09,269
hope I can turn this into something that

1909
01:18:14,930 --> 01:18:13,170
is edutainment for at least some folks

1910
01:18:16,669 --> 01:18:14,940
out there it's been awesome to me

1911
01:18:20,109 --> 01:18:16,679
because as you can tell I've had a lot

1912
01:18:22,580 --> 01:18:20,119
of my own deep state consciousness

1913
01:18:25,250 --> 01:18:22,590
experiences while listening to your

1914
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:25,260
excellent excellent show and I I really

1915
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:27,449
hope people check it out you're really

1916
01:18:35,209 --> 01:18:32,610
in this glut of podcasting content

1917
01:18:37,939 --> 01:18:35,219
there's some so much fantastic stuff out

1918
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:37,949
of it I do hope people find their way

1919
01:18:43,100 --> 01:18:40,530
over to your excellent show Richard as

1920
01:18:46,609 --> 01:18:43,110
we wrap it up tell folks what you have

1921
01:18:50,930 --> 01:18:46,619
coming up what you're working on okay

1922
01:18:53,540 --> 01:18:50,940
well I've just my mind is fried at the

1923
01:18:54,770 --> 01:18:53,550
moment I've spent the past month or so

1924
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:54,780
working on interview with the fellow

1925
01:18:57,319 --> 01:18:56,130
from the FBI about the kind of

1926
01:18:59,899 --> 01:18:57,329
intelligence failures are talking about

1927
01:19:01,279 --> 01:18:59,909
we have gone into the ring over the

1928
01:19:04,399 --> 01:19:01,289
collapse of the towers think with the

1929
01:19:10,729 --> 01:19:04,409
physicist David Chandler and I also have

1930
01:19:14,689 --> 01:19:10,739
lined up a lady who she was a client of

1931
01:19:17,629 --> 01:19:14,699
dr. Janet Colley who worked with UFO

1932
01:19:19,370 --> 01:19:17,639
encounters and people having that and a

1933
01:19:21,919 --> 01:19:19,380
lady who's had a kind of spiritual

1934
01:19:23,419 --> 01:19:21,929
awakening through prolonged encounters

1935
01:19:26,689 --> 01:19:23,429
okay he was writing a book on the

1936
01:19:28,310 --> 01:19:26,699
subject and to explore the spirituality

1937
01:19:29,119 --> 01:19:28,320
of contact so that's something I'm very

1938
01:19:31,939 --> 01:19:29,129
much looking for

1939
01:19:33,319 --> 01:19:31,949
and to doing and the continuation was

1940
01:19:35,929 --> 01:19:33,329
Athene's basically there's all these

1941
01:19:37,849 --> 01:19:35,939
fumes which I I get completely absorbed

1942
01:19:39,169 --> 01:19:37,859
whatever I'm doing and forget everything

1943
01:19:40,609 --> 01:19:39,179
else exists and then oh yeah I did that

1944
01:19:41,989 --> 01:19:40,619
so there's a continuing thing I'm doing

1945
01:19:44,750 --> 01:19:41,999
looking at around the spirituality of

1946
01:19:46,729 --> 01:19:44,760
Hell I've got a Tibetan lucid dreamer

1947
01:19:48,979 --> 01:19:46,739
coming up next to continue that series

1948
01:19:53,569 --> 01:19:48,989
looking at the spiritual value in

1949
01:19:56,209 --> 01:19:53,579
hellish experiences awesome much for me

1950
01:19:58,790 --> 01:19:56,219
to to look forward to great listening

1951
01:20:01,129 --> 01:19:58,800
for a good walk on the beach Richard

1952
01:20:03,500 --> 01:20:01,139
it's been absolutely awesome having you

1953
01:20:05,089 --> 01:20:03,510
on I know I to kind of sprung this on

1954
01:20:07,189 --> 01:20:05,099
you at the last minute in terms of

1955
01:20:10,339 --> 01:20:07,199
turning this into a skeptic episode but

1956
01:20:12,979 --> 01:20:10,349
I'm I'm glad we did so great -

1957
01:20:15,649 --> 01:20:12,989
absolutely yeah fully enjoyed it thank

1958
01:20:17,270 --> 01:20:15,659
you very much Alex thanks again to

1959
01:20:19,879 --> 01:20:17,280
Richard Cox for joining me today on

1960
01:20:22,339 --> 01:20:19,889
skeptic oh one question I'd have to tee

1961
01:20:24,349 --> 01:20:22,349
up at the end of this interview what the

1962
01:20:26,899 --> 01:20:24,359
heck does 9/11 have to do with deep

1963
01:20:31,099 --> 01:20:26,909
spirituality I tried to make the link

1964
01:20:33,259 --> 01:20:31,109
because to me it's really so much of

1965
01:20:35,239 --> 01:20:33,269
what this show is all about but as

1966
01:20:37,429 --> 01:20:35,249
always I'm interested to hear what you

1967
01:20:39,830 --> 01:20:37,439
have to say your thoughts your ideas the

1968
01:20:41,959 --> 01:20:39,840
best place to connect with other people

1969
01:20:44,299 --> 01:20:41,969
are listening to the show and to connect

1970
01:20:46,790 --> 01:20:44,309
with me is through the skeptical forum

1971
01:20:49,969 --> 01:20:46,800
skeptic oh - forum comm you can find

1972
01:20:52,879 --> 01:20:49,979
that for the sceptical website aske pti

1973
01:20:55,159 --> 01:20:52,889
KO comm where you will find all our

1974
01:20:58,040 --> 01:20:55,169
previous shows available for free

1975
01:21:01,549 --> 01:20:58,050
download mp3 take them run with them do

1976
01:21:03,679 --> 01:21:01,559
what you will with them I have a number

1977
01:21:05,929 --> 01:21:03,689
of I think super interesting shows

1978
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:05,939
coming up a couple of half-baked

1979
01:21:11,389 --> 01:21:09,090
projects that I am super excited to do I

1980
01:21:14,509 --> 01:21:11,399
hope you stay with me for that I hope

1981
01:21:16,849 --> 01:21:14,519
you join this community in any way that

1982
01:21:19,369 --> 01:21:16,859
seems to make sense for you and share it

1983
01:21:22,819 --> 01:21:19,379
with anyone you think needs to hear

1984
01:21:25,140 --> 01:21:22,829
about it until next time take care and